Some thoughts on recent events

[TD-1536]

...And I can guarantee that you'll never see another SW cast off original item offered to a member of the 501st outside of what is already out there.

please stop your cage rattling. I've never seen anyone get so bent out of shape before about something that has absolutely nothing to do directly with you. With the way you're acting, we'd swear someone recast one of your helmets!? Let's say they did for sake or argument, what would you do, burn down the server?

[SethB6025]

I think we are all posting over one another. Let me quote myself just in case.

"Weeds people, weeds! This is almost as bad as a meeting at work. The back and forth is deviating completely from the actual issue at hand, which for the time being, is in limbo. Lets hold our tongues for a short while, I assure you this isn't being swept under the rug."

[gino]

please stop your cage rattling. I've never seen anyone get so bent out of shape before about something that has absolutely nothing to do directly with you. With the way you're acting, we'd swear someone recast one of your helmets!? Let's say they did for sake or argument, what would you do, burn down the server?

See Mike, that is just what you don't get. It effects ALL of us. Some directly, and most others indirectly. It's not about ME or my stuff being copied. It's about ANYONE's stuff being copied. Scratch built or cast off original.

I'm thankful that it's not my stuff...this time. What about the next time?

I'm fighting for the principal of the matter which is worth fighting for, worth being bashed on, worth educating the costumers who might later embrace the want for really accurate pieces, and worth that one guy in the future who might change his mind about offering up his cast off original (blank).

[Daetrin]

I think we need to separate what we can do as individuals and what we can do as representatives of the 501st Legion.

As an individual, I can speak out completely against recasting. I think recasting is:

1) If done of a scratch sculpt: 100% not OK

2) If done as an exact copy of someone's work: 100% not OK (e.g. directly recasting TE, TE2, or even GINO).

Where it gets fuzzy for me is when someone recasts someone's work and then adds to it. In this case, someone recasts a C6 clone bucket but then reshapes various elements. Or Chris recasting Matt's work, but then smoothing the bumps, making it thicker here, more crisp there.

It's pretty to let this go in some cases, e.g. someone used a JM clone helmet as a base and made a Neyo from it. Heck, sometimes this is even done with permission.

But I have to say it's pretty hard for me in cases where it's not so clear cut. Chris Peters' working being but one example.

It's pretty nice not being a DL - I have 100% freedom to speak my mind.

But as a DL, XO, or other representative of the 501st, I have to toe a different line. In that capacity I'm not always able to go by my personal feelings - I have to toe the party line. When I was DL of FISD I had to enforce some calls I didn't personally agree with, but the truth is FISD wasn't my personal playground. It belongs to the 501st.

GINO, I think it would help looking at their actions as part of the 501st, not as Mike & Seth. I'm not really happy about the policy either on a personal level either.

But I think it would be helpful to talk about what they (we?) can do as individuals, and what 501st policy ought to be as separate topics.

[TD-4935]

Listen guys, what Gino is saying is actualy very important. i may have made light of it in my last post but his direct response to that and his subsequent posts actualy makes it quite clear.

I for one would hate, absolutely HATE a rift to appear between costumers and prop makers.

I crave quality props. i adore accurate looking items, i gladly and happily support the artists providing these items. i appreciate the dedication and effort that goes into producing these works. i would not knowingly buy a recast. i do my research and thus can avoid this. should i come across a recast i would share the information, i strive to make my costume as accurate and as good looking as possible and to do this i source products from known and respected artists. i cannot lie, to be told i may no longer get these items because i'm 501st or have been known to fraternise with outed recasters fills me with sorrow and weighs heavy on my heart.

Lets be honest here. Its nothing to do with charters, it's nothing to do with a shift in our ethics, who here can stand up and say "yes, i absolutely support recasting. and no, i dont care if i buy one or not"?

This divide could ruin everything we hold dear about costuming or collecting.

All i know is this. i love this hobby as much as Gino, its more than a hobby, its an obsession. if i didnt, i'd drop this BS like a stone.

i'll leave it with this. what would the decision have been had Chris recast TE2 and not TE ( and i'm not saying that recasting Matts work is okay by any means but it's a question worth asking)

i'm staying out of this now. its scaring me a little

[SethB6025]

I think Paul has summed up our positions very well. It would help the already frustrating situation of everyone kept those roles in mind when you read our "official" stances.

[TD-1536]

...I for one would hate, absolutely HATE a rift to appear between costumers and prop makers.

Right. That's what I don't want to see here or anywhere else. We're all by proxy replica props collectors. But, as has been stated before this has all taken place under a 501st entity, and as such is bound by the rules of it.

The last thing I personal want to see is a polarization that Gino threatens will occur. Gino, you must understand that just because this is 501st policy, does not equate to = 501st supports and harbors recasters. It is just not true. Given the nature and their high public profile, the Legion has to have a recasting policy simply for any potential legal ramifications.

[tk-4224]

i could say that´s a risk to order unlicensed stuff from outside of europe

so we should think twice if we order a expensive prop from outside or try to get something from inside of europe

other thing is reselling the good stuff

if you bougth something overa 3rd party you can´t sell it without a lot of guys called you a recaster

we wouldn´t have these kind of witchhunting here

TM often was called a recaster here without any proof

imo it´s only a battle to stay on top of the prop

[Scott M.]

GINO, I think it would help looking at their actions as part of the 501st, not as Mike & Seth. I'm not really happy about the policy either on a personal level either.

But I think it would be helpful to talk about what they (we?) can do as individuals, and what 501st policy ought to be as separate topics.

And in addition, realize that there are TWO sides to this, which is obvious by the continuance of the thread. Everyone try to see this from both sides (or all sides, and it might even be hard to determine only two). Be open to listening to what is being said, as well as the background.

It appears as most have drawn lines in the sand, and will not budge. It might not hurt to try removing the line, and stepping across and viewing this from the opposite views perspective. Again, this can only be helpful if both the buyers AND THE PROP MAKERS do this.

[SethB6025]

For what its worth;

http://www.mepd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41722#41722

As a DL I have acted rashly in response to Chris recasting Matt's armor. This is the first time this insidious type of offense has thrust itself upon our boards so I was unsure of how to deal with it. We should have clarified our relationship to the 501st charter before acting at all. It may have saved a lot of trouble. Of course, I have a feeling it will cause just as much. The resolution prevents us from being able to ban a member for recasting. A position that I personally disagree with but am unable to change on my own.

[removes DL hat for a moment]

My only option is to ask you Chris, as a peer, to either destroy your recast molds and "repent", or leave this board. I care about this board and its integrity. As members we have a responsibility to act with honor. By stealing someone else's work, you are not. If you choose to continue recasting I have no power to forcibly remove you, however I will tell you "peer to peer" that I do not trust you or welcome you. You have stolen from a friend, and you have brought venom and unneeded strife to our boards. If you don't care about that than you don't ******* belong here. That is all.

[clutch]

Holy fudging ****. I'm out for a coupla weeks and come back to this. Majority of the 501st are costumers, not collectors. I think that's the reason for the disconnect and the difference in opinion.

Rubber is dangerous in the wrong hands.

[Too Much Garlic]

I'm totally with GINO on this one - 501st charter or not.

If you buy the re-cast, you are doing exactly the same as the guy who buys the expensive stereo for cheap from some guy's trunk, because you don't want to spent what it costs to get it "legally". Stolen goods, nothing more.

For what its worth;

http://www.mepd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41722#41722

So, anyone recasting option 1 and 2 listed in this topic will go free - both from fan-made and from "cast from screen used"! Is THAT how it should be understood? That the 501st takes no stance what-so-ever on any re-casters, regardless?

That's how it is written, so I guess that is how it should be understood. You want the wares, but takes no responsibility towards how you get them. That's low.

If that is the official position of the 501st, then I will never recommend anyone from this group to anyone offering "cast from screen used" items and I will be very reluctant to sell anything to them, as the 501st charter doesn't protect that item from being re-cast.

Not taking an official stance against this is equal to condoning it. There is no way around it.

i'll leave it with this. what would the decision have been had Chris recast TE2 and not TE ( and i'm not saying that recasting Matts work is okay by any means but it's a question worth asking)

Tell me what the difference between TE2 and TE is? Both are "cast from screen used"... **** the TE2 IS the former TE molds. What's the difference? I don't see any.

If a strong stance against re-casters and the exclusions of those from the community and any forum, 501st or not, isn't taken... then it can be assured that people will think twice about wanting to offer anything accurate ever again. That is 100% for certain. Who would risk spending several hundred or thousands of dollars on getting the original, spending large amounts of money and risk destroying that original to make copies for interested people... if they don't have the protection of the community and the 501st to secure them from being re-cast.

The 501st risks to be excluded from future sales of accurate stuff if no security or protection from recasters is part of their rules. And I feel this is an issue that I will have to further discuss with my staff at my own forum.

[Scott M.]

I'm totally with GINO on this one - 501st charter or not.

If you buy the re-cast, you are doing exactly the same as the guy who buys the expensive stereo for cheap from some guy's trunk, because you don't want to spent what it costs to get it "legally". Stolen goods, nothing more.

I believe the issue is not that black and white, although I believe and understand the comparison.

Maybe a better comparison, using the electronics, would be if Person A purchased a very expensive stereo that was no longer sold, but in high demand. Person A then spent the next two years figuring out how to replicate the electronics inside, and the began selling his stereo. Now Person B comes along, and figures out how to also make the stereo, but spends no time and invests no real funds, because the re-engineered stereo allows for it to be reverse-engineered for almost no cost.

Now Person A can claim he has the original replica, and he would certainly be right to say his is the best, and many would agree. Person B also has "the same stereo,", but the parts are not 100% authentic. Person A can charge what he wants, and probably has the better product, but he cannot LEGALLY claim anything was stolen from him, because he did not have the original manufacturers OK to reproduce the stereo in the first place.

The 501st can and will make sure people know what they are getting, and that is really what education is all about. What it cannot do is be able to uphold any type of stance from a legal perspective. I believe education is the key. Make sure people know what is the original stereo and which one is the knock off. I also believe the problem many people here is the stance many prop makers take that their stuff is "original" and the recasts are the "stolen property." Provide lineage info, show work, provide details and documentation of what, where, and maybe most importantly, when.

Then we will all know what is 2nd generation, 3rd generation, etc. I know there will always be people who will recast stuff, and I for one do not want that to become a bigger issue than what reality dictates. But right now, reality is saying people are frustrated and the attitudes of the prop makers, and will look to other sources. Come a few steps towards the guys who buy the armor and actually wear it, and I think the whole community will come your way as well. Until that time, if you dig in and refuse to help educate and allow the community to know the difference, most people will not care that there is a difference.

[tk-4224]

it´s a very difficult part to discuss

but what should the 501st do?

banning all guys who supporting recasters?

a lot of garrisons have 80% of their member wearing recastet armor

a lot of recasters are in the legion

that would be a very big war

[TD-4935]

i'll leave it with this. what would the decision have been had Chris recast TE2 and not TE ( and i'm not saying that recasting Matts work is okay by any means but it's a question worth asking)

Tell me what the difference between TE2 and TE is? Both are "cast from screen used"... **** the TE2 IS the former TE molds. What's the difference? I don't see any.

there's one obvious difference. one is Matt and one isnt.

okay, lets put it this way.

if TE2 molds are the same as TE molds (which i know they are) then for TE to still be able to produce and sell helmets he must hav a set of molds of his own. now in my mind thats just sticking your middle finger up to the guy who just paid mega bucks for your supposedly one off molds of a screen used item. You think THATS fair? you think that isnt as bad as recasting when alls said and done? When have you ever read a post by TE2 that was slamming someone, crying blue murder about someone ripping him off or accusing someone of recasting his work or accusing someone of being underhand and dishonest. NEVER. TE2 is a mightily respected member of the community and i know for sure nobody here would EVER dream of recasting something that came from him. now i'm certainly not saying that Chris should have recast a TE under any circumstance but lets be truly honest here, i'm sure Chris thought that if anyone deserved to be recast it was Matt, purely because i'm sure he's dumped on a lot of people, Gino included. Chris should have known what would happen if this came to light but i guess he was banking on the hoards of Matt haters to jump to his defense. This is how i see it, i may be wrong. who knows? if Matt had sold his original molds to TE2 and never made another helmet again would it have been any different? again, who knows? all i'm saying is someones history and background in this community stands for something. positively or negatively.

as for the 501st stance on recasting. i cant understand why a costuming club so dependant on artists supplying props and costume parts whether they be fan-scuplts or screen used casts, would NOT actively root out and expose/outcast known recasters.

i'm still scared but i couldnt stay away, i need to feel something is being done to stop this horrible situation getting any worse

[Too Much Garlic]

Maybe a better comparison, using the electronics, would be if Person A purchased a very expensive stereo that was no longer sold, but in high demand. Person A then spent the next two years figuring out how to replicate the electronics inside, and the began selling his stereo. Now Person B comes along, and figures out how to also make the stereo, but spends no time and invests no real funds, because the re-engineered stereo allows for it to be reverse-engineered for almost no cost.

That analogy is bust. You can't substitute the codes of conduct from one "community" to another.

The electronics business had a copyrighted stereo for sale and no matter whether it was pricey or now discontinued, both person A and person B should not make copies, as they are infringing on a company's copyright. Those rules are governed by International Law.

The model kit community is pure black and white when it comes to recasting. There are the officially licensed products and there are the garage kits. Neither are condoned recast in the model kit community. However, the garage kit sculptors are infringing on a copyright they don't own, but they are sculpting a unique piece that no company has offered. According to International Law, they are law breakers, but are still protected by the community - even at times respected by the companies and sometimes gets imployed at the companies to sculpt licensed works.

The prop community is yet another animal, with three separate sections. The officially licensed, but lesser accurate replica offerings by companies (some say they are free game for re-casting, I disagree for the most part). Then there are the (similar to garage kit sculptors) scratch-builders, who infringe on a copyright to bring possibly more accurate replicas to those who want it. The third section is the cast from screen used people, offering stuff directly from the screen used - the height of accuracy, you could say (again, some say they are free game for re-casting as they are in a sense re-casters themselves, again I disagree for the most part). Yes, they made copies of an existing item and is technically a re-caster of said item, but the difference with this one and the next re-caster in line is that he is not cutting into someone's profits or offerings - he spent lots of money on getting the original and have it cast. Without this person NO ONE would have accurate armor, as an example, but would be stuck with FX. Since LFL or an officially licensed company is offering wares at this level of accuracy to the originals, then that person BECOMES the "official" source for those items - without him they would never have been made available. Yes, it could probably have been more favorable to have LFL or some licensed company to make these, but they don't. That's the whole deal with cast from screen used - NO ONE IS OFFICIALLY OFFERING THOSE. But if there is no protection for the people who take it upon themselves to make that first generation copy from the screen used, then we won't see any more cast from screen used offered ever again out in the open and possibly also not in private either.

No one can stop people from buying what they want, but we CAN educate as best we can. Giving re-casters a free-pass will send a wrong signal and what will be the point of banning them on other forums for re-casting if they can just come to a 501st controlled forum and continue their business, influence others and still have access to buying new stuff to re-cast? That's one heck of an insult to throw at the whole community and all other forums trying to keep these people's access to a minimum.

[TD-1536]

...If a strong stance against re-casters and the exclusions of those from the community and any forum, 501st or not, isn't taken... then it can be assured that people will think twice about wanting to offer anything accurate ever again. That is 100% for certain.

No, it is not certain. I'm making accurate Clone armor. Do you think just because I'm afraid someone might recast it, especially in the 501st, that I'm not going to resell it? Hogwash. Matter of fact, I would prefer to restrict my sales only to 501st members. Recasting comes with the territory. If you don't like it, get out of the hobby.

Who would risk spending several hundred or thousands of dollars on getting the original, spending large amounts of money and risk destroying that original to make copies for interested people... if they don't have the protection of the community and the 501st to secure them from being re-cast.

If someone is going to spend upteen thousands of dollars to acquire a screen-used item, only to recast and resell it for profit, then they clearly don't care about recasting. YOUR WHOLE INTENT IS TO PROFIT ILLEGALLY. The threat of recasting is small change compared to the insane profits someone could reap from your legitimate sales. And protection!? What protection... this mythical, unwritten Code of Ethics?! You're all thieves! WE'RE ALL THIEVES! There is no protection from unlawful rights and license infringement.

The 501st risks to be excluded from future sales of accurate stuff if no security or protection from recasters is part of their rules. And I feel this is an issue that I will have to further discuss with my staff at my own forum.

Please do so. While I honestly don't want there to be a polarization between 501st and prop collectors in general... after all, we're also prop collectors... you must understand that the 501st, as an entity that is associated with LucasFilm on varying levels does not need this type of legal drama raising red flags. If anything, the 501st has made illegal recasting and intellectual infringement much easier for everyone to get away with because George turns a blind eye to most of it, knowing that the 501st is doing good and positive things with many of these props in question.

In closing...

THIS IS A DETACHMENT OF THE 501ST AND FALLS UNDER CHARTER POLICY. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.

[TD-1536]

...Giving re-casters a free-pass will send a wrong signal and what will be the point of banning them on other forums for re-casting if they can just come to a 501st controlled forum and continue their business, influence others and still have access to buying new stuff to re-cast? That's one heck of an insult to throw at the whole community and all other forums trying to keep these people's access to a minimum.

I agree. This is a potential downfall and side-effect of 501st policy. But please understand, while we enact and enforce Legion Charter - we are just like you. We do not support recasters and we inform and educate at every turn. Trust me when I say this. WE DO NOT SUPPORT RECASTERS.

It is simply Legion policy to not get involved. Dig?

[Vaj]

looks like I have to go down on this level and say one thing. It just depends on your ego Gino, to be jealous on recasters that they had an easier way. All your other reasons are only words to talk around it. You have the right to be jealous but it shows what kind of a person you are. You don't want to see another person able to make what you make.

Even if I would scratchbuild an armor for example and don't want to make much profit like you why should I care if someone recasts it? It's just the own ego. If I only want to make it available for all of us and beeing a nice guy I would not care. If I want to make profit or beeing famous that would be a reason!

[TD-1536]

ok, we need to lock these threads. Too much drama regarding a very legal situation is exactly what the 501st is trying to avoid.