Some thoughts on recent events

[tk-4224]

acting like a papagino is very funny in a kindergarden

guys

i think gino only wants to earn kudos for... i don´t realy know

he didn´t try to understand someones position

gino should lay his bills down he paid for trooper helmet molds

and yes

the mepd is detachment of the 501st

it´s open for public to get new guys into the 501st costuming world

[TD-1536]

There is no difference between the two examples you just posted.

Because one was scratchbuilt and one wasn't? That somehow makes it okay.

1. Neither belong to us on a legal standpoint.

2. I put more work, money, dedication, etc.. into my cast off original items than you and Seth combined on your scratch builds x 10.

So how are they different?

From a legal standpoint, you're correct - the intellectual property is not owned by you or even someone making a fan sculpt. Because of these very real legal reasons, I've taken this up with Legion Command. It is currently in discussion and I assure you that the decision will reverberate across ALL the detachment boards - MEPD, FISD, CT.net, Bikerscout.net, all of them. All detachments are under 501st Charter and that charter exists for many legal reasons.

More info to come...

[Scott M.]

This board is first and foremost, a detachment of the 501st and geared towards costuming. Period. I could've ended all this weeks ago by simply pointing at the 501st Charter.

I don't even know what a 501st charter is, so that means nothing to me. Not everone who visits this board is a 501st costumer.

And if you have the ability to end anything, then I'd say someone has been given too much power for their own good. Anyone wanting to squash debate about a topic usually means they know they are in the wrong and don't want to hear it. Makes it easier for them.

For the record, from the 501st.com website:

Article I - Club Mission

The 501st Legion of Imperial Stormtroopers (a.k.a. "the Legion" aka "501st" a.k.a. "Vader's Fist") is a Star Wars fan club celebrating the Star Wars universe using costumes and props, in particular those of the stormtrooper characters, Imperial forces, and other various "bad guy" characters. The Legion is a volunteer club formed for the express purpose of bringing together costume enthusiasts and giving them a collective identity within which to operate. The Legion's aims are to celebrate the Star Wars movies through the wearing of costumes, to promote the quality and improvement of costumes and props, and most importantly to contribute to the local community through charity and volunteer work. We the members of the 501st hold no rights to these characters and recognize it is a privilege to wear these costumes. We also acknowledge that while in costume we represent these movies and as such accept the responsibility to behave professionally and civilly while in public. This document serves to define what the Legion shall be and to define a set of guidelines for how the Legion will operate.

If you read through this, it might help you to understand where the disconnect is. I am not saying you are wrong, but only to provide an point of perspective. Since this is run as a detachment of the 501st; these values are to be the core of the community.

Now, as stated, not everyone here is a 501st member, but those ideals are central to what the forum is about, and are to be respected and understood. I believe most people here respect your contribution to the hobby, but it is seen as that, a hobby. If we take this line and examine it:

The Legion's aims are to celebrate the Star Wars movies through the wearing of costumes, to promote the quality and improvement of costumes and props, and most importantly to contribute to the local community through charity and volunteer work.

This is what most of us focus on. Reading the last part, that is what makes us tick: ..charity and volunteer work. Many of us will strive for accuracy, and want the best, but when we troop and see the seven year old boy about to jump out of his skin, that is what we are in it for, not the uber-accuracy, not the $2,000 bucket, not the 100% accurate armor, but the work we can do IN armor.

I realize sometimes one cannot exist without the other, but it goes both ways. For the 501st to exist, we need prop makers who can create amazing sets of armor for us to troop in, and the prop makers need us to purchase the stuff we troop in. Not all of us have the talents to do both, and some only can do one or the other. If I could sculpt, I would try to make my own helmet in a heartbeat, but I am not talented that way. I imagine you have never put on a set of armor and volunteered for any charity, and that is OK. No one is saying you have to, but please keep in mind that is what the 501st is about. And since this is a detachment of the 501st, it is also what most of us are about.

[gino]

Please excuse me, and I know you mean well but that arguement comes up a lot.

And it is such ********.

Then why aren't people content to just wear their FX armor?

99.9% of people (especially those who you do charity events for) don't recognize the differences.

It's because they WANT the accurate stuff. They don't NEED it.

FX helmets and armor is plentiful and very inexpensive.

Problem solved right?

And their WANTS, cause them to go about obtaining the more accurate stuff by any means necessary, regardless of the guidelines of trust and honor unofficially set within the prop community.

And yes, 501st whether they realize it or not IS part of the larger and much older prop community.

[Wolfie]

Please excuse me, and I know you mean well but that arguement comes up a lot.

And it is such ********.

Then why aren't people content to just wear their FX armor?

99.9% of people (especially those who you do charity events for) don't recognize the differences.

It's because they WANT the accurate stuff. They don't NEED it.

FX helmets and armor is plentiful and very inexpensive.

Problem solved right?

And their WANTS, cause them to go about obtaining the more accurate stuff by any means necessary, regardless of the guidelines of trust and honor unofficially set within the prop community.

And yes, 501st whether they realize it or not IS part of the larger and much older prop community.

We would like to look nicer, yes, but not for 2000.00 for an f'ing helmet.

If you hate the way we believe, go peddle your wears back on RPF. Quit talking down to us because we dont want to give you 2000.00 and because we care more about charity work than someone recasting your helmet.

Why do you avoid answering why you wont drop your price to gain respect / loyalty?

Heck, I think you should be banned from 501st sites because you dont do anything worth a dang for us except complain. Why should you have access to our boards other than to rape us for every penny you can get from somewhere?

[tk7602]

Accuracy is all relative.

I don't imagine your average 501ster would WANT a bumpy drippy helmet with hand painted lines and peeling paint.

People don't like the FX helmets because they look goofy. They are way too big, and keep you from turning your head. So troopers want something that's smaller and less funny looking.

Most folks I know don't know the difference between a GF2, a TE, an AP, etc... they call them "movie sized helmets" or "ANH helmets". Many people don't care about fiberglass vs. resin vs. ABS/HIPS/whatever...

If it looks like a stormtrooper, they are happy.

I got my AP armor because my FX was too big, and AP is the stuff that normal folks without friends who know people can get. If there were other options out there, then some research and decision making would have come into play.

Those who are serious prop collectors will appreciate the Ginos and TEs of the world. Those who are moderate costumers will want something that looks the part, and those who just sorta like star wars will buy whatever lands on eBay.

In my opinion, the role of a board like this is to inform, not enforce. Make it known that X person recasts Y person's work and what that means. Leave it to people to cast their own judgment.

Those who would buy a recast knowingly will do it no matter who is banned. But having the info out there for the world to see may prove more effective than sweeping people away.

[Scott M.]

Then why aren't people content to just wear their FX armor?

99.9% of people (especially those who you do charity events for) don't recognize the differences.

Many are. Didn't you see the fury of the possible discussions on the FISD board about FX being banned or no longer allowed? I think you are generalizing.

It's because they WANT the accurate stuff. They don't NEED it.

This is also true, but again, this is not all 2,380 501st Stormtrooper and Sandtroopers. So may people are 100% fine and happy with their FX. I am, and plan to use it to become my sandtrooper. Much of the issue is when the prop makers begin to insult the armor many people have poured so much effort into. No specifics, but I have seen so many posts that state "all FX is crap", or only "my armor is 100% accurate". I believe this is where the thoughts of the Elitist mentality starts. If everyone hates my armor, but someone else has a more accurate set, I would be interested. If one is $500 and another is $5,000 and I don't know why, I go with the $500 set.

I think this is WHY Mike and Seth said education is key. If I know the $500 set is a recast, I will have to decide if I am willing to take that step. If all I know is one is ten times more expensive, and I can't tell the difference, most will not pay too much for the sake of paying too much.

I truly believe the prop community has itself to blame for some of what has gone on recently. Too many stories and infighting makes it hard to know what is real and what is made up. How many sets of molds can a person sell before people start wondering which ones are the "real" molds. The lack of consistency makes it hard to know who is telling the truth and who is not. Being up front and honest about everything makes life easier. Sure there are people who will rip stuff off, man has always had that nature. Fortunately for us, those who will go to that level are in the minority as well. But when some hold themselves to be "superior" to everyone else; people start to take shots and knock them down.

And yes, 501st whether they realize it or not IS part of the larger and much older prop community.

Without question, but not having the same goal as the prop makers.

You stated earlier that this forums command staff had to step up and be leaders, and I think they have already shown that they are. Leadership is (to me), about being the head servant. In my short time here, I think I have seen nothing but service from the Command staff. That to me, is true leadership.

[gino]

.......

[TD-1536]

...In my short time here, I think I have seen nothing but service from the Command staff. That to me, is true leadership.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Your words and approach to this topic has been welcomed.

BTW, I just got off the phone with Seth. We agree that we should've just stuck to Legion charter rules regarding this whole situation from the beginning. Considering it was and still is an issue we'd not been confronted with before, it was new ground for us. A recasting issue of this magnitude had not been raised under our watch and as such, there was no protocol for dealing with it. As it stands now, it appears this WILL fall under Charter rules and this debate will be over with. That judgment will stand for ALL the detachments, Gino, including the FISD.

[gino]

Higher prices, less access, and less availability to more accurate pieces is all this is going to lead to. Look at where it is at now.

Word hasn't really spread to the masses yet, but once it has, artisans are going to be hesitant to deal with you if you are a 501st member.

Pretty soon, 501st members are going to all be lumped into the same category as a high potential for being a recaster or recaster harborers.

So much for unifying the groups.

[SethB6025]

Final confirmation is pending but it looks like at this point, we will wind up having to fall under the 501st charter. Its (the amendment on recasting) not an amendment I agree with in particular but if it comes down from the council that it applies to us it will & we won't have any say in it beyond that. The same will go for all other detachments of the 501st.

I can't really add anything that I haven't already said. If this were a stand-alone prop board or if it were solely up to me and my personal preferences I would just like to toss him but I felt that it would maybe be a better cure to the issue to leave him on the board. This is the first time that this has happened here so this is what the growing pains look like.

If nothing else going to the Legion should clarify to what extent the 501st charter applies to detachments and perhaps put an end to us all having our own set of general standards and rules.

Gino; to answer your question I don't see any difference between the two from a moral standpoint, but from one of an objective mediator who has to deal with a lot of different attitudes there is a perceived difference that I am unable to ignore while trying to make everyone happy.

To everyone else, please don't buy from recasters they are wrecking our hobby from the inside out.

[TD-1536]

...word hasn't really spread to the masses yet, but once it has, artisans are going to be hesitant to deal with you if you are a 501st member. Pretty soon, 501st members are going to all be lumped into the same category as recasters or recaster harborers.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally, I know many great artisans IN the 501st who be reluctant to deal with outsiders like your self, much for the same reasons.

[Wolfie]

Higher prices, less access, and less availability to more accurate pieces is all this is going to lead to. Look at where it is at now.

Word hasn't really spread to the masses yet, but once it has, artisans are going to be hesitant to deal with you if you are a 501st member.

Pretty soon, 501st members are going to all be lumped into the same category as a high potential for being a recaster or recaster harborers.

So much for unifying the groups.

THEN GET OFF OUR BOARDS.

or drop your prices.

at least 501st members who make things set them at reasonable prices.

We're a huge potential source for income and you know it, thats why you register at every one of our boards that lets you...

[TD-4935]

Word hasn't really spread to the masses yet, but once it has, artisans are going to be hesitant to deal with you if you are a 501st member.

Pretty soon, 501st members are going to all be lumped into the same category as a high potential for being a recaster or recaster harborers.

lets say you took the 501st out of the equation, pray tell me who the frak are ya gonna sell ya helmets to? huh?

if you "artisans", many of whom ARE 501st decide to boycott the selling of your wares to the 501st then, basically, your biting the hand that feeds you!! it's insane that you could even contemplate that kind of business suicide.

(when i say "you", i mean the collective "artisans " you. thats not directed at you personally Gino.)

Gino, you're obviously not too bothered about selling to the 501st, i see you as a seller to rich prop collectors and people wanting a great display piece, which is totally cool. you've found your market and are happy. Many other "artisans" out there may actually rely on the 501st for their bread and butter. You think they are gonna drop us?

This in itself will only make recasting more rife IMHO.

oh...wait........it's.........

REALITY CHECK!!!!

[gino]

THEN GET OFF OUR BOARDS.

Gladly, if you'd all get off mine.

We're a huge potential source for income and you know it, thats why you register at every one of our boards that lets you...

Actually, not really.

Also, the reason I register at YOUR boards is two fold. Some people there actually want to know things about the armor you wear that no one else can answer. The other reason is to watch out for ****** bag recasters and who is friends with them.

[SethB6025]

Okay, I think we are really getting into the weeds here. Lets pause for a moment and digest the following;

1) We (the staff of this board) are pending confirmation of our obligations in respect to the 501st charter. In spite of the fact that the forum is open to the public it is still part of the 501st hierarchy.

2)Pending the outcome of that confirmation we may or may not be in a position to take action other than publicly addressing the facts, and making the information regarding the recast known to membership.

3)If we are left in a position to act beyond the constraints of the 501st charter we will discuss what action to take at that time.

4)Further circular arguments are probably pointless, but discourse is always welcome.

[SethB6025]

To all who have seen it fit to declare the boards "theirs" I will remind you that this board belongs to all of the members regardless of their affiliations. That is something that I have defended vehemently and I will take personal issue with anyone who wants to turn this into a private party or try to make a member in good standing feel unwelcome.

[gino]

lets say you took the 501st out of the equation, pray tell me who the frak are ya gonna sell ya helmets to? huh?

if you "artisans", many of whom ARE 501st decide to boycott the selling of your wares to the 501st then, basically, your biting the hand that feeds you!! it's insane that you could even contemplate that kind of business suicide.

I've helped people out both 501st and non 501st. I never had a preference until now. Before all I cared about was that you had the same goal of total screen accuracy, and that I could trust you not to copy whatever it was I gave you.

Props has never been a 'business' for me. I just don't have the time to make the items my way and have it be cost effective. Wouldn't want to if I could. And there aren't that many people out there that I trust anyway.

i see you as a seller to rich prop collectors and people wanting a great display piece, which is totally cool.

I don't know of a single person who has gotten something from me that would be considered 'rich' by any of us. Hardly anyone that I know has tons of cash laying around for stuff like this, including myself. Everyone I know has had to trade in other props, trade with me personally, or save up for something they wanted. Again, just like myself.

Many other "artisans" out there may actually rely on the 501st for their bread and butter. You think they are gonna drop us?

You bet your ***. Especially if they think that there is a good chance that you might recast their stuff.

And I can guarantee that you'll never see another SW cast off original item offered to a member of the 501st outside of what is already out there.

[Wolfie]

THEN GET OFF OUR BOARDS.

Gladly, if you'd all get off mine.

We're a huge potential source for income and you know it, thats why you register at every one of our boards that lets you...

Actually, not really.

Also, the reason I register at YOUR boards is two fold. Some people there actually want to know things about the armor you wear that no one else can answer. The other reason is to watch out for ****** bag recasters and who is friends with them.

according to TE you use his molds anyway, so yours are second gen anyway?

Regardless we're all 501st or aspiring 501st here, so you really are going to kill a lot of people's respect anyway, and a lot of 501st people are in other places, and some of them have money and influence, and you're pushing them away from all angles, if you believe it or not.

one of the two of you or TE is lying anyway, so pretty much, as said before everyone is a thief anyway. But I dont support stealing and recasting... but I dont support price gouging either. But there are a lot of people with money they want to spend to look good, that will buy from TE and Chris because they cant afford the 2000. price tag.

and selling to anyone is going to open you up to a recast. more so from non-members since most of us have more heart than to do it. (buying it always seems to be another story) if someone spends 2000 on a helmet, a good chunk of them probably want to make money back off it. there arent many people who would spend that just to let it sit on a table.

Are you willing to disclose seriously how much money you've invested in your product to warrent the price tag? and what cost what? it might help a lot of us understand why you think we should pay that much?

[Wolfie]

To all who have seen it fit to declare the boards "theirs" I will remind you that this board belongs to all of the members regardless of their affiliations. That is something that I have defended vehemently and I will take personal issue with anyone who wants to turn this into a private party or try to make a member in good standing feel unwelcome.

sorry, Seth. 'our' meaning 501st in general, not claiming this board specifically as 'mine'. to me, there is no reason for someone who dislikes the 501st and has no want to join, other than for $ to be here. He has never seemed like he was here to help. every where I post he just talks down about members. and he devalues the work of you and other members on this board specifically in these posts or I would ignore it like i've done every where else.

someone who wants to learn and make costumes and the like, should never feel unwelcome on a 501st board. people that only like us for potential money and spying purposes need to find something better to do. ruddy vultures.

Edit: and that isnt just for gino's sake... if the Chris guy isnt here for any reason then to sell us stuff, then he's out of place too.

[TD 8733]

Let me say for the record. I don't want any of our members

501st or not gone. That statement was aimed at those

who insist on going off about their right to commit

illegal activity with no concern for the powers that can ruin

their lives. Gino never address's Lucas films legal department.

He always dodges the issue. I am truly amazed!

I guess your confident they don't have your info "Gino".

I have made this point before. Don't post comments that

can incriminate you. They might come back to haunt you.

[gino]

Are you willing to disclose seriously how much money you've invested in your product to warrent the price tag? and what cost what? it might help a lot of us understand why you think we should pay that much?

I don't know. How do you put a price tag on 8 years of your life devoted to research and development?

Not to mention the enormous price tag of the original molds.

I think it shows in my pieces.

If you cannot tell my helmet's worth, then you either don't know that much about what a real helmet should look like, or you don't care that much about authenticity/pedigree/accuracy/etc..

[TD 8733]

Like I said. Dodges the issue.

[SethB6025]

Weeds people, weeds! This is almost as bad as a meeting at work. The back and forth is deviating completely from the actual issue at hand, which for the time being, is in limbo. Lets hold our tongues for a short while, I assure you this isn't being swept under the rug.

[Wolfie]

Are you willing to disclose seriously how much money you've invested in your product to warrent the price tag? and what cost what? it might help a lot of us understand why you think we should pay that much?

I don't know. How do you put a price tag on 8 years of your life devoted to research and development?

Not to mention the enormous price tag of the original molds.

I think it shows in my pieces.

If you cannot tell my helmet's worth, then you either don't know that much about what a real helmet should look like, or you don't care that much about authenticity/pedigree/accuracy/etc..

well, I cant tell your helmets worth because it looks VERY similar to TEs which cost way less. Yours are painted up well... but TE claims your molds were his...

if you bought them from him at a huge price, that really sucks. but we dont know the truth with all of this, so its hard for a lot of us to warrent spending that much on something. MR's helmets are 500. or so, and are licensed, I just would like to know why this is so much more than everything else.

There is a chance some of us do have the money but dont see/understand. And yeah a lot of us dont have the time to spend 8 years following something like that. I spent 3 years working on x-wing and endor cloth parts. But I never put a price higher than a 30% profit on anything I've ever made for any costume of any type I have made.

Generally, I have always wanted more accurate looking people around Rebel wise, so if someone steals my patterns, and sells parts for the same price as me, I dont care, but most people try to charge more since I dont make much when I make things anyway.

The problem is we see a lot of fighting and cant tell who lies about what and when two people claiming they have something similar with hugely different prices is a hard call. We can take to PM if you like, I really would like to understand, I just cant seem to wrap my brain around it.

So many people see you as wanting money more than caring... since most of us care more about having made something and want as many people to have it as possible, so its made affordable , and its done because we like prop making