WeiBes (Chris) openly admits he recast without permisson

[TK-6829]

I'll just post my small two bits from my part of the galaxy.

This is a hobby.

This is not supposed to be a business matter, we who buy the stuff (the majority of who buy the stuff) buy the stuff to wear it. Not just to collect it and put on display. For those with the means to go out and spend thousands of dollars on display pieces - I applaude you!

For others (like myself) - I enjoy the hobby of costuming.

I enjoy putting on the armor, trooping to bring a smile to a childs face. Visiting a childrens hospital, giving a child that moment where they can forget about everything that isn't right...and just enjoying the moment.

Do they care that my helmet only cost about $200.00 and not $1000?

NO.

Do they care that I'm not 100% screen accurate?

NO.

It's all about fun with the hobby folks, and how YOU want to be a part of it. As far as I understand - the MEPD is a COSTUMING GROUP. We are not necessarily a prop collection group, with our focus on getting our hands on the most elite, rarest, hard to find movie prop.

I love looking at the accurate pieces, I really do!

However, for me - putting on my FX Sandtrooper armor with an ANH helmet makes it all good to me!

[avatar_man]

It's the people who feel this way who never get 'anything cool'.

And by way of cool, I mean original pieces or cast off original pieces with solid pedigree.

Because no one trusts them with it to begin with.

Kind of a catch 22 huh?

I have held my opinion on this issue for a while. So, here goes.

Yes - that's what it is all about, getting something cool. The only reason you "got something cool" is because you were at the head of the line. And now YOU want to change the rules, so you are the only person with something cool. Simply put, you are not doing your long term reputation of being an elitest any good, (I'll sell one or two of my precious items at 5 times the actual value when I feel like slumming with you little people - trust me, you have that rep). Don't get me wrong, I do not condone mass recasting pretty much in lock-step along with what our XO has stated - but you are just another recaster - since you didn't create your helmet(s) out of thin air. This tells me you just want to control the market and give yourself the advantage, so you can continue to bend people over for 1,000 bucks a pop or more. It's not my intention to flame or start a war, but when was the last time you actually suited up or did anything in this hobby that didn't line your pockets? Trooping for charity causes now are you? Official member of the 501st? Doing anything but selling helmets to people for way too much money? When you start to give as much as you take - then I'll start caring about your calls to ban someone for re-casting - anything short of that - you are just another maker of items looking to sell (JMHO)

P.S. If this posting is too controversial, please feel free to truncate, edit or otherwise remove anything that would violate the board rules. I will not take offense, and surely wouldn't go so far as to call for banning someone on a difference of opinion or practice..

[Daetrin]

Some good points. In fact everyone wins in a way as things become clearer.

You can choose to:

1) Go with what's closest to screen used in pedigree

2) Go with a vendor that has "cleaned up" items to some degree, and everyone cleans up just a bit differently. This means that a preference for a particular vendor comes into play. You can choose based on what they added aesthetically, or by price, or by how you like the seller.

No two sets are exact copies. As you noted GINO - you're helmets are not for everyone. Neither is TE2. Each has their own particular market.

Note this only affects people casting screen used items. It in no way condones open recasting.

I think what the policy does is essentially create a fair market on a particular class of items.

GINO - people should feel good about buying one of your items for the unique characteristics you bring to your kit. Just like people can feel equally good about buying TE2. Or even TE's new stuff.

No two items are truly equal, so it's not the same as making an exact recast of someone's original work.

[TD-4935]

It's the people who feel this way who never get 'anything cool'.

And by way of cool, I mean original pieces or cast off original pieces with solid pedigree.

Because no one trusts them with it to begin with.

Kind of a catch 22 huh?

I have held my opinion on this issue for a while. So, here goes.

Yes - that's what it is all about, getting something cool. The only reason you "got something cool" is because you were at the head of the line. And now YOU want to change the rules, so you are the only person with something cool. Simply put, you are not doing your long term reputation of being an elitest any good, (I'll sell one or two of my precious items at 5 times the actual value when I feel like slumming with you little people - trust me, you have that rep). Don't get me wrong, I do not condone mass recasting pretty much in lock-step along with what our XO has stated - but you are just another recaster - since you didn't create your helmet(s) out of thin air. This tells me you just want to control the market and give yourself the advantage, so you can continue to bend people over for 1,000 bucks a pop or more. It's not my intention to flame or start a war, but when was the last time you actually suited up or did anything in this hobby that didn't line your pockets? Trooping for charity causes now are you? Official member of the 501st? Doing anything but selling helmets to people for way too much money? When you start to give as much as you take - then I'll start caring about your calls to ban someone for re-casting - anything short of that - you are just another maker of items looking to sell (JMHO)

P.S. If this posting is too controversial, please feel free to truncate, edit or otherwise remove anything that would violate the board rules. I will not take offense, and surely wouldn't go so far as to call for banning someone on a difference of opinion or practice..

amen to that brother, i love the giving nature of costuming for these amazing causes. it's a wonderfull by product of the hobby for me. before i joined the UKGarrison it was all about the prop and the build but now its far more.

on a side note however,

In Gino's defence (i cant believe i'm actually saying this but....) if he wanted to line his pockets he could flood the market with his product at a far cheaper price. This could also in a bizarre way reduce the need to recast his stuff. if his product was widely available at a reasonable price so even us plebs could get hold of it you wouldnt want to buy a second rate recast would you?

you could say then, that recasting is possibly a result of the exclusivity and hard to come by nature of this hobby. mix that with ego and a persons need to feel important and you have two devisions. the haves and the want to haves. when the opportunity arises to own a recast of an otherwise impossible to get item someone is gonna buy it so encouraging the recasters ergo Gino, its all your fault (joke!!)

[gino]

This entire issue has NOTHING to do with money.

That shows me just how far removed you are from understanding the point of all this.

[TD-4935]

This entire issue has NOTHING to do with money.

That shows me just how far removed you are from understanding the point of all this.

thats my whole point G, i was actually saying you WERENT in it for the money.

If this IS the case, i'll give you $500 for one of your lids

[Rolf]

I´m not 100% sure where to start... But i will try.

Its hard to name a price for a art piece, i think.

I have been painting canvas, and firms etc for years.

And its hard to say, what do your art cost us.

When i do a job, here and there.

If its a rich/big firm, its higher price.

If its small people, i sometimes do it for free.

Now you all think... What is he talking about that crazy dane .

But my point is, if the maker sell he´s suit to a price where all kind of people can be in on to buy.

I guess there is no reason, to recast it (for me).

I don´t know any thing about casting suits (almost).

But i guess, like art.

If a maker try to sell he´s art to a mighty high price, a helmet or kit.

It might get recast, to go on sale as a replica to a lower price for the public.

Not to say that is okey/all good to recast others work.

But again, we did it all ready.

Many of the good suits out there, as TM, AP and TE2 cost around +++ dollars.

And is good price i think, where we all can join in.

And give no reason to use time, to recast it.

Buy plastic/vac table, do pulls.

Makes contacts etc etc....

I don´t wanna use my time whit.

When you can buy sweet suits, for a sweet price.

But i think is more then cool, when there comes new makes up.

And push up the higher quality of suits, accurate etc.

I don´t hope i hurt any feelings there.

Peace out.

Rolf

[tk7602]

This entire issue has NOTHING to do with money.

That shows me just how far removed you are from understanding the point of all this.

i say this honestly and truly... that's the whole reason i even replied. i don't get the point at all. i haven't ever gotten it.

say i have a helmet.

it's mine. i have it to make myself happy in some form.

then say i decide to make a mold of it and make copies for a couple of friends.

my helmet is still an original. it's still rare, and it's still mine.

i know myself that i wouldn't want to make 1000 copies, just for the effort involved. so really, the number of copies would be limited by my interest in reproducing them.

say someone else makes a copy of that helmet and makes more.

my helmet is still mine. it's still original. etc...

my friends' helmets are still copies right off of mine. they still have better quality helmets than those 1 generation further away.

so there again... my stuff hasn't changed. my friends' stuff hasn't changed, and the people buying the recasts never would have had access to mine in the first place.

i can totally understand being upset by the lack of respect... i just don't get why it's a holy crusade with some folks.

you say that people with this attitude will never get anything cool. well really, it's more about money than trust in a lot of ways, especially for fans of other franchises than star wars. a couple thousand dollars gets you a sweet screen used firefly prop for example.

but back on topic.

the copies in no way diminish what i have, so then what damage is there to me? my ability to charge $1000 for a helmet? that's about the only thing i can see that gets really hurt by it. or my pride? my status?

pride and status mean little to me, which is why i don't get it. i love being able to share what i do with the world. hoarding information doesn't do anything to me.

i may not ever get anything cool, but know that if i do, i'll do my best to share as much as i can of it!

[Scott M.]

Reading all this and watching this thread here and on the FISD site, I have come to a single conclusion: There are multiple reasons for this issue and the divided camps.

We are not all in this for the same reason

Some of us are in this for the trooping experience. In fact, I think 99% of the guys and gals I have met in my short time with the 501st indicates that this is not about putting on the best armor to be a braggart, but trooping with a purpose. This is why I joined, and love trooping. I was once told that a 7 year old could tell the difference between a TE2 and a n FX helmet, and tell me all the things that were wrong with the FX, but I have never met this child. The kids (and adults) I see trooping love the armor, regardless. In my 5 days trooping Celebration IV, I had one person, ONE, tell me my new bucket was the first screen accurate he had seen , and wanted a picture with me. The other 100 or so pics I took, no one cared. Now, do I want more accuracy in my armor; sure, but that is just me, but at the end of the day, all I really want is to see the smiles of kids and adults from behind my green tinted lenses.

As I said, there is a second camp here, and these are the prop makers and collectors. This group is not into the Star Wars world for the kids and adults at the troops. They are in it for the chase; the thrill of having the most accurate helmet, or blaster, or armor out there. And many of these people have the means to pay for said items.

Now we will see crossovers between the two camps, but in the end, you really fall into one or the other. The challenge of all this recently is the "troopers", are becoming more savvy, and are looking for more accurate products, but they still do it for the troop. Sometimes the desire to troop in a screen accurate set of armor is not possible for financial reasons, so they look to people outside of the prop makers and uber-accurate collectors.

I believe now that it will be very hard for these two different camps to ever see eye to eye; the motivation is different, even if it is not financial. For me, I was thrilled I had someone comment on my bucket, but I would rather see the smiles on 1,000 kids who got to meet a Stormtrooper, than to know I made one 35 year olds day by having a screen accurate bucket.

I too want the "cool stuff", but I cannot justify the costs. I will just work and tweak what I can, and be thrilled the next time the seven year olds I meet come up and are so excited to meet a "real Stormtrooper", which, regardless of who's armor I am wearing, I am.

[Daetrin]

I think what's also lost is that this isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Everyone has cleaned up the molds to some degree and uses different materials.

There are lots of folks who have several helmets from several makers for this reason.

Honestly, I don't think you guys are really competitors. My $.02 anyway...

[gino]

You said it yourself, kids and most people don't even recognize the difference between an fx or an AP.

So why don't you just stay with your fx then?

It's because YOU want something more accurate. The people you 'troop' for could care less how much more accurate your suit is past the point of an fx.

Bottom line is, you want the better stuff, and don't care about how you go about getting it. Forget what it took for the people who brought it to the community in the first place. It's insulting when people try to simplify that path as if they knew. Sometimes it's big money, other times it's big sacrifice, other times it's big trust, sometimes it's all that and more. But make no mistake, nothing authentic EVER just falls into anybodys lap. Let alone if the one allowing access to the screen used piece thinks you are going to ***** it out for the world.

Let's see how much authentic stuff trickles down into the hands of the likes that have been posting here from now on. You don't realize it, but you've just bitten off the hand that feeds you. And I'm not talking about me, because I hardly ever offer anything publicly. I'm talking about all the other prop makers/collectors who will never offer the good stuff because of your mentality.

And let's face it, you just ****** off the part of the hobby that brings these things to you people. Way to thank them.

If you think that future prop offerings in the collector community won't matter to you, then that is about as shortsighted as the little pig that built his house out of straw.

I realize, I'm wasting my time trying to explain.

[Scott M.]

You said it yourself, kids and most people don't even recognize the difference between an fx or an AP.

So why don't you just stay with your fx then?

It's because YOU want something more accurate. The people you 'troop' for could care less how much more accurate your suit is past the point of an fx.

Bottom line is, you want the better stuff, and don't care about how you go about getting it. Forget what it took for the people who brought it to the community in the first place. It's insulting when people try to simplify that path as if they knew. Sometimes it's big money, other times it's big sacrifice, other times it's big trust, sometimes it's all that and more. But make no mistake, nothing authentic EVER just falls into anybodys lap. Let alone if the one allowing access to the screen used piece thinks you are going to ***** it out for the world.

Let's see how much authentic stuff trickles down into the hands of the likes that have been posting here from now on. You don't realize it, but you've just bitten off the hand that feeds you. And I'm not talking about me, because I hardly ever offer anything publicly. I'm talking about all the other prop makers/collectors who will never offer the good stuff because of your mentality.

And let's face it, you just ****** off the part of the hobby that brings these things to you people. Way to thank them.

If you think that future prop offerings in the collector community won't matter to you, then that is about as shortsighted as the little pig that built his house out of straw.

I realize, I'm wasting my time trying to explain.

I think you are correct, to a point. One thing that I would ask if for those who are in the position to provide the cool stuff actually be up front about it all. Using myself as an example, I had no idea there was any other TK armor other than FX when I started. Sort of the whole "in crowd" mentality is rampant in this arena. Now obviously the info is out there, but it is not easy to find. I bought the FX because I did not know anything else, and then when I asked, we get a thread of 100 posts, and 90% of them are name calling, accusations of stealing and broken promises by the people who are in the know, and the rampant feeling of "I know something you don't know." It is hard to know who is right and who is wrong when no two people agree on anything, and will not provide info for those who are "hungry for info."

I realize the recasting issue makes holding some items close to the vest needed, but sometimes we all just want to give up trying to understand anything.

Again, this is also a slippery slope of how much to you share before you lose what advantage you have. Sometime too much info can be a pain, but too little can cause everyone to revolt. I know if I knew 100% of the info out there about a helmet, I might feel different about the product. But I guess that is the bottom line, and the never to be solved dilemma.

Makers do not share info, for fear of being copied and made obsolete, and buyers get sick of being felt to feel inferior because they "will never know all the details", so they make their own, even recasting an existing item. The original "re-caster" (or owner of the original prop) gets upset, and withholds more info. A never ending cycle, and I have no real idea how to break it.

[Hellraiser]

You said it yourself, kids and most people don't even recognize the difference between an fx or an AP.

So why don't you just stay with your fx then?

It's because YOU want something more accurate. The people you 'troop' for could care less how much more accurate your suit is past the point of an fx.

Bottom line is, you want the better stuff, and don't care about how you go about getting it. Forget what it took for the people who brought it to the community in the first place. It's insulting when people try to simplify that path as if they knew. Sometimes it's big money, other times it's big sacrifice, other times it's big trust, sometimes it's all that and more. But make no mistake, nothing authentic EVER just falls into anybodys lap. Let alone if the one allowing access to the screen used piece thinks you are going to ***** it out for the world.

Let's see how much authentic stuff trickles down into the hands of the likes that have been posting here from now on. You don't realize it, but you've just bitten off the hand that feeds you. And I'm not talking about me, because I hardly ever offer anything publicly. I'm talking about all the other prop makers/collectors who will never offer the good stuff because of your mentality.

And let's face it, you just ****** off the part of the hobby that brings these things to you people. Way to thank them.

If you think that future prop offerings in the collector community won't matter to you, then that is about as shortsighted as the little pig that built his house out of straw.

I realize, I'm wasting my time trying to explain.

Through all of that nonsense and fluffy, barely disguised elitism....you neglected to answer TD-4935's question.

You say you're NOT in it for the money.

So will you sell him one of your oh-so-precious buckets for $500?

I'll take one too at that price. No? Figured as much.

You are doing yourself no favors by proving exactly what you are about.

[gino]

Like talking to a brick wall.

[Hellraiser]

Here's a tip for you.

You should stop digging.... I think the hole is deep enough.

[tk-4224]

gino

i have much respect from your work

and i love your buckets

but the elite talk hurts me

sorry

but i never saw anything what you have realy done

you and TE knowing the real story were your molds from

you´re pulling the helmets and assemble and paint it

ok

i think there are a lot of guys around who would do similar buckets if they have the molds

you say often you have informations nobody knows about

i also have informations you didn´t know

so i´m elite cause i tell this every day on the boards?

no

cause i can´t handle or wouldn´t handle this informations

so you should stay on the point that your buckets are very good assembled and rare

everyone knows this

and you would stay on your level even if there are 1 million recasts

so i still didn´t get YOUR point

how would a recaster hurt you if you didn´t loose money or they can´t reach your level at accurat helmets?

you would be still at your point

[TD-1536]

I think everything that can be said about this subject has been said. There is plenty of information and personal opinion in this thread to allow people to make their own buying decisions.

For all the elite prop collectors, please understand that this forum is a detachment of the 501st and that our perspective is on costume building and trooping. If you want to discuss replica props in general and their associated code of ethics, please take it to the RPF.

With that said, I believe we'll all have to agree to disagree and move on.