Vf2112 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hey guys was reading thread that side tracked to recasting- want to hear more, I saw a guy selling recast the other day for a whole brand new kit with both tk and td parts he wants like $250 complete BUT.... Although shapes of parts looked accurate and pretty cool most pieces were wavy not smooth but stil Why can one guy shape closely enough (?) $80 worth of plastic and sell for $250 while people considered acceptable charge $1200-$1500+ just for having a better mould ? I'd pay more for quality too but $1500 for less than $100 worth of materials you have to trim cut shape glue rig out yourself ...... Bit rude really. Am I wrong? GO:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smally Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Some valid points here Vince, however I think it also comes down to the cost of: 1) The upkeep of the equipment used to form the plastics 2) The vendors time to make the pulls (most have full time jobs and families and I can't imagine that it would be a quick process) 3) The amount of money put into obtaining/shipping the plastics from stocks - I'd guess there would be a hefty amount to be ordered. Plus lets not forget that everyone needs to be making some pocket money also, or else what is the point? However, I do hear what you're saying bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 24, 2012 Author Share Posted December 24, 2012 Has anyone tried heating a sheet and stamping it instead of vac form or is that silly I guess if it was that easy it would be done that way, Love to see the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smally Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 There used to be a video on YouTube of Matt (TE) vac forming a helmet in his kitchen.... Using his home oven! It's been taken of now. Although the process seemed crude, it was still very interesting to watch. Paul (Troopermaster) briefly explained to me some of his and Matt's build techniques, again, very interesting to hear how it's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegance Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 From what I have read different people have different views on this and some threads get pretty heated about re-casting. I have been up to RS Props and seen their set up with a large Vac-Forming maching which was interesting to see in action. There is a listing on e-bay at the moment for a set of TK molds which im watching out of interest but im not knowledgable enough to comment on what they are like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smally Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 There is a listing on e-bay at the moment for a set of TK molds which im watching out of interest but im not knowledgable enough to comment on what they are like. I've seen the moulds on eBay that you're talking about, I had to laugh lol. Even without the rubies helmet, that armour looks poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegance Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Be interesting to see what it goes for!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper1 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Well I am going to chime in here since I did question it on the other thread. I still agree with the original comment of cost. The problem lies with trying to recoup cost, and get rich off just a few sets of armor instead of trying to sell lots of sets and getting rich gradually. Now to explain. I am in 5 businesses as well. My whole goal into making money and staying in business is gaining customers. If there were 100 customer prospects, and I could sell to all of them, then I would have the market, and would not have to worry about competition, or the fear of recasting. But If I mark up my product 8 times, just to show that I have something you want, and you will have to pay for it, then I may catch 30 of those 100 prospects, and lose the other 70. Now this is Ok, but the 70 are still looking, and now the 30 who purchased see that, and are now wondering how they can get a piece of the pie. Recast what they purchased sell it for 4 times what they have in it, and the game begins again. The way I see it? It is morally wrong to recast something, but then again, so is screwing your fellow troops. With this said, I do have mixed feelings about recasting. If a product is recast to the same standards as it was made by the original person, and sold much cheaper, then shame on the original person. If something is recast though, and made with much cheaper materials, and advertised as top quality, then shame on the recaster for screwing his fellow troops. This happens a lot here and the real world. A lot of product ideas are stolen, then sent to China or other countries to be reproduced from cheaper materials, with cheap labor, then sold at prices that we think are great. Then we realize we got what we paid for when it falls apart. Just an example. You get my point, I could debate this for hours! Lol since I see it here in all my businesses, none of which are selling to my fellow troopers. My one gift to the troops is my hobby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 24, 2012 Author Share Posted December 24, 2012 http://s1323.beta.photobucket.com/user/vf2112/media/image-2_zps84359e40.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0these are pics of armour I found for $275 complete kit if u can't view them all here let me no ill put all links up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smally Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 http://s1323.beta.photobucket.com/user/vf2112/media/image-2_zps84359e40.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0these are pics of armour I found for $275 complete kit if u can't view them all here let me no ill put all links up That will be as thin as paper. You will not troop in this for long, if at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 24, 2012 Author Share Posted December 24, 2012 Yeah I don't know if ya can get a close up but it's all unsmooth and wavy lookin too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 http://s1323.beta.ph...sort=3&o=0these are pics of armour I found for $275 complete kit if u can't view them all here let me no ill put all links up That link just sends me to photobucket home page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottie Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Ya...i think the price is up there,,however this is a simple breakdown of cost....plastic about 80 a sheet,,2 will do a large one. Stuff to make molds,,,,well over 1k depending. The mechine,,again you want a good one,,,for cheep 5k,make your own 2k..most of that is vacuum pump....you can NOT get the pulls you want with a vacuum cleaner, on a good day they pull about 5 HG you want 18 to 20.....and then the time to make the molds....i am almost a year it to it and i am still not done,,,the recasters pulls will never look as good becouse there is a lot more to the molds then just a block of stuff,,,,,,needless to say i was gonna buy that cheep set and paint it to look like Santa ,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Locitus Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Those images are of makerofthings recasted RS armour. He uses thin styrene plastic which does not hold up well at all for trooping. Your armour will fall apart in a matter a couple of troops. So if you go with that, you're just wasting money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 Yep that's the guy:) as to other costs for machines n such surely they are set up and initial cost don't bout where you guys are but a full 2.4/1.2m 2mm thick sheet of abs or hips here is $35-$40 dollars I'm reminded of a toll bridge stil after a new bridge or road has paid for itself (like a mold/vac) the price stil goes up! I'm all for buying good armour but my point is if one guy can do it even if thinner or less quality for $275 with everything to tk OR TD your armour why are others charging $1500 surely the less you charge the more costomers you'd have especially with places such as rubies and jedirobe charging in the $1000s for inferior product. I'm sure there's more to it than I understand but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I see where you are coming from but I don't think you see the big picture. For instance, a common semi detatched house where I live goes from anywhere between £100k - £200k all for a few thousand pounds worth of bricks and mortar. The same house can be bought in another area for £50k or another area for £300k plus. How can this be when they are all identicle houses made from the same materials? I may be going off the beaten track here but it's the same for armour. If you want the best then you will expect to pay more. There is more to making armour than just buying a few sheets of plastic. Like Walt already said, mould making and mould materials cost time and money, the forming machine and upkeep/running costs, quality of plastic, service and reliablity of the maker and the most importantly, a good reputation. If you just want to spend a few hunderd pounds/dollars then you are not going to get much in return. Poeple making cheap armour for a quick buck usually turn out inferior products. It happens all the time. Someone buys a cheap armour and sure enough they end up selling it and buying a more expensive kit. Why? Because it was cheap and nasty, and they wished they hadn't wasted their time and money in the first place trying to get a bargain armour when there really is no such thing. Jedirobe and other ebay sellers are just ripoff merchants. They charge a huge amount to gullible people who don't know any better. Then, after someone buys their armour from them and they start finding out about this forum and the FISD, they wish they had gone to a reputable seller for a better kit and usually cheaper. So to put a finer point on it: Cheap = Garbage - Expensive = Quality (from a reputable seller) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 I understand totally wat your saying and that's the way it is!! But... If a backyardie can do 1/2decent job a pro should be able to do it better for the same price I've been building since I was 12 and houses are defiantly a rip off , I know wat it costs for materials costs labour these guys like armour builders are double triple and sometimes quadrupling there money because we all sit back and say nothing but wat can we say ?!! So as you said we pay for quality but its more than the job is worth, $100 worth of plastic for $1500 dollars is rediculous but if we want the good stuff we pay it we all just agree that's wat is right and next time I buy armour I'll pay that instead of the $450 for rubies off eBay lol but I'll never agree its fair of course it's not just armour it's the whole world ha ha but we're here not there right now anyhow.... Just wish one of these guys who can make it properly could help out a lot cheaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 Oh and identical houses different area ? Location is everything . Why? Just like this , they say so. I hate they lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottie Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Well look at it this way....i own a repair shop and have hired key people to work for me,,,this took 5 years...the last 6 months i have been working on just molds..time alone,,,how much money have i lost in that time....recasters,steal from the guys that put the time effort and blood it to your armor long before you even think about buying a set...is that worth something....i rember paul said something to me a while back....your done when your done,perfection takes time....recasters rob that from the makers...if you are ok thit that then so be it......off track here....happy holidays guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 I agree with that rottie ..... Got any cheap armour:) but seriously , I agree recast is lazy and theft . Do you make armour? If so wat ARE the costs ? Initial and ongoing out of interest. On another note don't fair dinkum armourers and recasters have the same overhead proper machines and moulds not withstanding . How long does it take to cast a full set? Just so you know I agree with you totally about recasters my price opinions are related to ridgy didge casters and why there so expensive so maybe you can tell me .... And afterwards hook me up bro merry Xmas all its all over here but be safe and good night Cheers. Xoxoxo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper1 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 First off Merry Christmas! LOL As for Paul and Walt, I understand and agree to a point. The whole world has became a figure of dollars though I am afraid. I am afraid though that as the world has became more of greed and the almighty money, I have stayed behind. At least that's what my wife says! Lol I have spent many hundreds of hours volunteering and designing things, spent many hours building houses and commercial structures, and for what? Just the feeling that I did something great, whether I have recognition or not. I know when I created my Pauldrons, I spent thousands on new machines, and on the best materials that I could, and can find. I have still never came close to paying for any of it, even with selling over 300 Pauldrons. To me it doesn't matter though, It is a hobby, and these are my Sandy brothers legacy. I do this for the love of the Hobby, so if I have to pay a lot more for an accurate set of armor, I know I will do so. I just wish though that this hobby wasn't so expensive, and we could all create things that most could afford. If this happened, all these recaster's would probably go away, since their garbage wouldn't be much cheaper than the good stuff. I mean if I had a choice of choosing $500 armor, or $900 armor, I am choosing the $900, because of the value added quality. Now if it was $500 armor vs $1800 armor.. I am sorry, I would have to purchase the $500 armor and try to get by. Now out of the thousands of costumers buying armor every day, this is a trend that could, and is, hurting the quality armor makers. Look at TE2 armor? No longer made, and it was a wonderful armor at a fair price, but the cheaper recast killed the sales. Just saying, what will the future hold for these expensive builders if there is no one to buy the product??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 The hobby is expensive and that is just the way it is. Making a product cheaper to sell more is not the way it works. Most people who charge more are not looking to sell lots of pieces. You can find sellers who sell similar pieces much cheaper and there is a market for them, just as there is for more lucrative pieces. We all have choices and if you want cheap armour, it is out there for you. No one is ever going to make something cheaper for the fear of recasting. Recasting will always happen. Even if you are giving stuff away it will get recast, simply because someone wants a piece of the pie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vf2112 Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 @ trooper 1 I'm with you I'm not a profit man and think if someone could do it cheaper and make a little not a lot at a time it would work out it the long run @ trooper master your right there is cheaper armour out there but who wants it. I went cheap cause I didn't know better thought all armour was the same that's wat recasters profit from noobs like myself and ppl who just want a Halloween costume but like I said if a descent builder sold cheaper and wasn't trying to get everything they put in to start back, as one would assume they started out of love of armour not profit maybe it wouldn't be worth it to recasters to supply cheap crap ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 @ trooper master your right there is cheaper armour out there but who wants it. You do! You keep going on about how all armour should be made as cheap as the next guy. There is cheap armour out there as I have said. Cheap armour is trash. How many times do I have to say it? We are going around in circles just as these threads always do. Yes, we know armour can be made cheaply, but it is never going to be as good as more expensive armour. Cheap armour is cheap for a reason. You will never stop recasters recasting. There will always be someone out there ready to rip you off and undercut you. Your way of thinking is like going into a Ferrari dealership and complaining their cars are 4 times more than your Ford. No amount of moaning will get them to drop their prices and they will still sell just as many cars, just as Ford will sell many cars too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottie Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I love car references.....you can buy a tool from snap on or a craftsman...both do the same thing,,one cost 4 times the amount......i have all snap on tools....just saying.....now lets go enjoy the rest of the day with family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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