[The perfect boots?]

They look close, but the elastic U-shape on the sides is too low and not rounded as much as the CABoots..

By painting/dying them, you would be certainly close to what they had on screen.

[good or not?...]

Its the current version of it, you'd have to replace the bottom ridged part with some tupperware burger stackers, but the rest would look okay.

COVERED!!!

Burger stackers are on the way!!!

[Fresh from the Man Cave]

Guns, you seek Guns (aka TD-2581).

PM Guns, you must.

[New Users, introduce yourselves here!]

OK, I guess I should do the formal thing and get the intro out of the way!

Name is Scott, and I have been in the legion for about a year. Started as a TK, and I am currently the Deployment officer for the FISD. I decided that I needed to do a new set of armor every year, so I am converting the TK to a sandy and getting a new TK.

I live in Colorado (where we are getting round two of 8" snow storms)!! I am married and have two boys, 10 and 6. They are all very supportive, and most of them troop with me. I did Celebration IV and spent around 30 hours in armor over the five days. I also spent some time in partial armor during the World Series, rooting for the Rockies (not Costa Rica ).

My biggest passion outside of Star Wars is my connection with the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. I have had Juvenile (Type 1) diabetes for 21 years, and have been a part of the local fund-raising walks in Denver for the past 7 years. This year, I got some of the local Garrison together and we made it a troop. We mingled with the kids, and I walked the three miles in armor, and raised over $2,000 for JDRF!!! Here is a link to the local JDRF website where our Garrison is mentioned!!

Well, that is about it. I need to get back to work so I can start getting my pack trimmed, and work on the TD bucket.

Thanks for listening.

[Some thoughts on recent events]

I'm totally with GINO on this one - 501st charter or not.

If you buy the re-cast, you are doing exactly the same as the guy who buys the expensive stereo for cheap from some guy's trunk, because you don't want to spent what it costs to get it "legally". Stolen goods, nothing more.

I believe the issue is not that black and white, although I believe and understand the comparison.

Maybe a better comparison, using the electronics, would be if Person A purchased a very expensive stereo that was no longer sold, but in high demand. Person A then spent the next two years figuring out how to replicate the electronics inside, and the began selling his stereo. Now Person B comes along, and figures out how to also make the stereo, but spends no time and invests no real funds, because the re-engineered stereo allows for it to be reverse-engineered for almost no cost.

Now Person A can claim he has the original replica, and he would certainly be right to say his is the best, and many would agree. Person B also has "the same stereo,", but the parts are not 100% authentic. Person A can charge what he wants, and probably has the better product, but he cannot LEGALLY claim anything was stolen from him, because he did not have the original manufacturers OK to reproduce the stereo in the first place.

The 501st can and will make sure people know what they are getting, and that is really what education is all about. What it cannot do is be able to uphold any type of stance from a legal perspective. I believe education is the key. Make sure people know what is the original stereo and which one is the knock off. I also believe the problem many people here is the stance many prop makers take that their stuff is "original" and the recasts are the "stolen property." Provide lineage info, show work, provide details and documentation of what, where, and maybe most importantly, when.

Then we will all know what is 2nd generation, 3rd generation, etc. I know there will always be people who will recast stuff, and I for one do not want that to become a bigger issue than what reality dictates. But right now, reality is saying people are frustrated and the attitudes of the prop makers, and will look to other sources. Come a few steps towards the guys who buy the armor and actually wear it, and I think the whole community will come your way as well. Until that time, if you dig in and refuse to help educate and allow the community to know the difference, most people will not care that there is a difference.

[Some thoughts on recent events]

GINO, I think it would help looking at their actions as part of the 501st, not as Mike & Seth. I'm not really happy about the policy either on a personal level either.

But I think it would be helpful to talk about what they (we?) can do as individuals, and what 501st policy ought to be as separate topics.

And in addition, realize that there are TWO sides to this, which is obvious by the continuance of the thread. Everyone try to see this from both sides (or all sides, and it might even be hard to determine only two). Be open to listening to what is being said, as well as the background.

It appears as most have drawn lines in the sand, and will not budge. It might not hurt to try removing the line, and stepping across and viewing this from the opposite views perspective. Again, this can only be helpful if both the buyers AND THE PROP MAKERS do this.

[Some thoughts on recent events]

Then why aren't people content to just wear their FX armor?

99.9% of people (especially those who you do charity events for) don't recognize the differences.

Many are. Didn't you see the fury of the possible discussions on the FISD board about FX being banned or no longer allowed? I think you are generalizing.

It's because they WANT the accurate stuff. They don't NEED it.

This is also true, but again, this is not all 2,380 501st Stormtrooper and Sandtroopers. So may people are 100% fine and happy with their FX. I am, and plan to use it to become my sandtrooper. Much of the issue is when the prop makers begin to insult the armor many people have poured so much effort into. No specifics, but I have seen so many posts that state "all FX is crap", or only "my armor is 100% accurate". I believe this is where the thoughts of the Elitist mentality starts. If everyone hates my armor, but someone else has a more accurate set, I would be interested. If one is $500 and another is $5,000 and I don't know why, I go with the $500 set.

I think this is WHY Mike and Seth said education is key. If I know the $500 set is a recast, I will have to decide if I am willing to take that step. If all I know is one is ten times more expensive, and I can't tell the difference, most will not pay too much for the sake of paying too much.

I truly believe the prop community has itself to blame for some of what has gone on recently. Too many stories and infighting makes it hard to know what is real and what is made up. How many sets of molds can a person sell before people start wondering which ones are the "real" molds. The lack of consistency makes it hard to know who is telling the truth and who is not. Being up front and honest about everything makes life easier. Sure there are people who will rip stuff off, man has always had that nature. Fortunately for us, those who will go to that level are in the minority as well. But when some hold themselves to be "superior" to everyone else; people start to take shots and knock them down.

And yes, 501st whether they realize it or not IS part of the larger and much older prop community.

Without question, but not having the same goal as the prop makers.

You stated earlier that this forums command staff had to step up and be leaders, and I think they have already shown that they are. Leadership is (to me), about being the head servant. In my short time here, I think I have seen nothing but service from the Command staff. That to me, is true leadership.

[Some thoughts on recent events]

This board is first and foremost, a detachment of the 501st and geared towards costuming. Period. I could've ended all this weeks ago by simply pointing at the 501st Charter.

I don't even know what a 501st charter is, so that means nothing to me. Not everone who visits this board is a 501st costumer.

And if you have the ability to end anything, then I'd say someone has been given too much power for their own good. Anyone wanting to squash debate about a topic usually means they know they are in the wrong and don't want to hear it. Makes it easier for them.

For the record, from the 501st.com website:

Article I - Club Mission

The 501st Legion of Imperial Stormtroopers (a.k.a. "the Legion" aka "501st" a.k.a. "Vader's Fist") is a Star Wars fan club celebrating the Star Wars universe using costumes and props, in particular those of the stormtrooper characters, Imperial forces, and other various "bad guy" characters. The Legion is a volunteer club formed for the express purpose of bringing together costume enthusiasts and giving them a collective identity within which to operate. The Legion's aims are to celebrate the Star Wars movies through the wearing of costumes, to promote the quality and improvement of costumes and props, and most importantly to contribute to the local community through charity and volunteer work. We the members of the 501st hold no rights to these characters and recognize it is a privilege to wear these costumes. We also acknowledge that while in costume we represent these movies and as such accept the responsibility to behave professionally and civilly while in public. This document serves to define what the Legion shall be and to define a set of guidelines for how the Legion will operate.

If you read through this, it might help you to understand where the disconnect is. I am not saying you are wrong, but only to provide an point of perspective. Since this is run as a detachment of the 501st; these values are to be the core of the community.

Now, as stated, not everyone here is a 501st member, but those ideals are central to what the forum is about, and are to be respected and understood. I believe most people here respect your contribution to the hobby, but it is seen as that, a hobby. If we take this line and examine it:

The Legion's aims are to celebrate the Star Wars movies through the wearing of costumes, to promote the quality and improvement of costumes and props, and most importantly to contribute to the local community through charity and volunteer work.

This is what most of us focus on. Reading the last part, that is what makes us tick: ..charity and volunteer work. Many of us will strive for accuracy, and want the best, but when we troop and see the seven year old boy about to jump out of his skin, that is what we are in it for, not the uber-accuracy, not the $2,000 bucket, not the 100% accurate armor, but the work we can do IN armor.

I realize sometimes one cannot exist without the other, but it goes both ways. For the 501st to exist, we need prop makers who can create amazing sets of armor for us to troop in, and the prop makers need us to purchase the stuff we troop in. Not all of us have the talents to do both, and some only can do one or the other. If I could sculpt, I would try to make my own helmet in a heartbeat, but I am not talented that way. I imagine you have never put on a set of armor and volunteered for any charity, and that is OK. No one is saying you have to, but please keep in mind that is what the 501st is about. And since this is a detachment of the 501st, it is also what most of us are about.

[Radio Faceplate (Suggestions?)]

I sold my last one to Whitecommando.

Man, is he in for it!!! He will rue the day, and I will make him suffer on the FISD forum!!!!

Thanks, I have sent Charlie a PM. I appreciate the quick response.

[Help with E-11 Blaster kit.]

Yep, these can turn out pretty good. Not totally screen accurate, but I also like mine.

I also used the same kit. Photo is not the best, but it certainly works. It is the same on in my sig banner.

[Radio Faceplate (Suggestions?)]

OK, I am in the process of converting the FX to a sandy, and I have loved reading all the great info here. I purchased a backpack frame last weekend, and got a set of boxes from Mr. Bojangles, so now I need to get a radio box and start on that part of the project.

Does anyone have an extra laying around the garage? (or just waiting form someone to ask)

I have several pack reference threads marked, and have been planning to get this thing going, and I believe this part is the one i will have the most trouble with.

Thanks in advance, as well as for all the great info here.

(soon)

[WeiBes (Chris) openly admits he recast without permisson]

You said it yourself, kids and most people don't even recognize the difference between an fx or an AP.

So why don't you just stay with your fx then?

It's because YOU want something more accurate. The people you 'troop' for could care less how much more accurate your suit is past the point of an fx.

Bottom line is, you want the better stuff, and don't care about how you go about getting it. Forget what it took for the people who brought it to the community in the first place. It's insulting when people try to simplify that path as if they knew. Sometimes it's big money, other times it's big sacrifice, other times it's big trust, sometimes it's all that and more. But make no mistake, nothing authentic EVER just falls into anybodys lap. Let alone if the one allowing access to the screen used piece thinks you are going to ***** it out for the world.

Let's see how much authentic stuff trickles down into the hands of the likes that have been posting here from now on. You don't realize it, but you've just bitten off the hand that feeds you. And I'm not talking about me, because I hardly ever offer anything publicly. I'm talking about all the other prop makers/collectors who will never offer the good stuff because of your mentality.

And let's face it, you just ****** off the part of the hobby that brings these things to you people. Way to thank them.

If you think that future prop offerings in the collector community won't matter to you, then that is about as shortsighted as the little pig that built his house out of straw.

I realize, I'm wasting my time trying to explain.

I think you are correct, to a point. One thing that I would ask if for those who are in the position to provide the cool stuff actually be up front about it all. Using myself as an example, I had no idea there was any other TK armor other than FX when I started. Sort of the whole "in crowd" mentality is rampant in this arena. Now obviously the info is out there, but it is not easy to find. I bought the FX because I did not know anything else, and then when I asked, we get a thread of 100 posts, and 90% of them are name calling, accusations of stealing and broken promises by the people who are in the know, and the rampant feeling of "I know something you don't know." It is hard to know who is right and who is wrong when no two people agree on anything, and will not provide info for those who are "hungry for info."

I realize the recasting issue makes holding some items close to the vest needed, but sometimes we all just want to give up trying to understand anything.

Again, this is also a slippery slope of how much to you share before you lose what advantage you have. Sometime too much info can be a pain, but too little can cause everyone to revolt. I know if I knew 100% of the info out there about a helmet, I might feel different about the product. But I guess that is the bottom line, and the never to be solved dilemma.

Makers do not share info, for fear of being copied and made obsolete, and buyers get sick of being felt to feel inferior because they "will never know all the details", so they make their own, even recasting an existing item. The original "re-caster" (or owner of the original prop) gets upset, and withholds more info. A never ending cycle, and I have no real idea how to break it.

[WeiBes (Chris) openly admits he recast without permisson]

Reading all this and watching this thread here and on the FISD site, I have come to a single conclusion: There are multiple reasons for this issue and the divided camps.

We are not all in this for the same reason

Some of us are in this for the trooping experience. In fact, I think 99% of the guys and gals I have met in my short time with the 501st indicates that this is not about putting on the best armor to be a braggart, but trooping with a purpose. This is why I joined, and love trooping. I was once told that a 7 year old could tell the difference between a TE2 and a n FX helmet, and tell me all the things that were wrong with the FX, but I have never met this child. The kids (and adults) I see trooping love the armor, regardless. In my 5 days trooping Celebration IV, I had one person, ONE, tell me my new bucket was the first screen accurate he had seen , and wanted a picture with me. The other 100 or so pics I took, no one cared. Now, do I want more accuracy in my armor; sure, but that is just me, but at the end of the day, all I really want is to see the smiles of kids and adults from behind my green tinted lenses.

As I said, there is a second camp here, and these are the prop makers and collectors. This group is not into the Star Wars world for the kids and adults at the troops. They are in it for the chase; the thrill of having the most accurate helmet, or blaster, or armor out there. And many of these people have the means to pay for said items.

Now we will see crossovers between the two camps, but in the end, you really fall into one or the other. The challenge of all this recently is the "troopers", are becoming more savvy, and are looking for more accurate products, but they still do it for the troop. Sometimes the desire to troop in a screen accurate set of armor is not possible for financial reasons, so they look to people outside of the prop makers and uber-accurate collectors.

I believe now that it will be very hard for these two different camps to ever see eye to eye; the motivation is different, even if it is not financial. For me, I was thrilled I had someone comment on my bucket, but I would rather see the smiles on 1,000 kids who got to meet a Stormtrooper, than to know I made one 35 year olds day by having a screen accurate bucket.

I too want the "cool stuff", but I cannot justify the costs. I will just work and tweak what I can, and be thrilled the next time the seven year olds I meet come up and are so excited to meet a "real Stormtrooper", which, regardless of who's armor I am wearing, I am.

[WeiBes (Chris) openly admits he recast without permisson]

Actually I do, but I just cannot figure out where it ends. Once you start down the path, who does it end with? If you say no recasting ever, does that include the GF, Gino and TE stuff also?

Now I do understand the work and effort it went into to get access to the screen used helmets, but was it recast? Did LFL give permission to recast it and sell it?

If the answer is no, then I think Seth's point about original work applies here. Unless it was an original sculpt, it either never starts or never ends.

[WeiBes (Chris) openly admits he recast without permisson]

So here is something I was informed of recently that is similar to this issue:

Apple has had enormous success with the iPod, and many variations of the first release of this product. One thing many users like is the control wheel used to navigate the screens. Here is the kicker: Apple forgot to patent the wheel, and Microsoft jumped on it and filed for and received the patent rights.

Now, in my eyes, this was totally wrong; Apple did the work, made the product, and even sold tons of them. Should Microsoft have filed for the patent? Probably not, but it was granted to them, and now they have the right to charge Apple every time they make an iPod with that navigation wheel.

Morally and ethically, I believe this was not right for Microsoft to steal someone else's work, and profit from it; but they can legally. Now, in a gentleman's agreement, Microsoft does not really charge Apple for the use, but it can. So, who do we fault here? Even more curious, what would you do if you found Microsoft selling a product with Apple's navigation wheel? Some would buy it, other would shun it. Neither would have a legal fight over who is right and who is wrong.

In the end, it truly is not our products that we troop in. Some have spent a lifetime of hours working to get things right, and they should be commended and respected. But in the end, who should cast the first stone? I think until Lucas does; we cannot. I feel this is a slippery slope, and one that could find many people having to agree, when it comes down to it, most of us have items and replica props that are not licensed.