nick.black Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Sorry if I seem out of place but surely if 6 is clearance for swat then it must be acceptable for 501st and MEPD police officer standards. I for one, won't be getting 2 helmets in order to get cleared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Sorry if I seem out of place but surely if 6 is clearance for swat then it must be acceptable for 501st and MEPD police officer standards. I for one, won't be getting 2 helmets in order to get cleared. (null) No... unfortunately it's acceptable for one but not the other. The issue is SWAT was created to be a standard for people to reach that had already 501st standards... had moved through Deployed Officer standards... and wanted something else to reach for. So the idea was that people would already 1) be in the 501st, and 2) have Officer status. It was NEVER meant to be a 'first step.' Reaching it was meant to be difficult AND, again, was meant to consider you already had the other two things in place. It was also meant to be something that looked at the movie very specifically and said, "Okay, this guy has 'X, Y, and Z'... so to achieve SWAT deployment for "him" the applicant must have 'X, Y, and Z' as well." Of course this meant that we would run up against things exactly like we have here... someone wanting to do a trooper like "Stop that Ship." He not only has only 6 teeth, but he also does not wear a pack. Well, that's fine and good if you get into the Legion without a pack, but to get Deployed as an MEPD Police Officer you must have a pack. So, if you're "starting" with the hope of going directly to SWAT Deployment with a "STS" trooper then guess what? you're going to have to get a pack anyway to get Officer first. Basically the Officer Deployment remains to be the best goal for 99% of guys to go for. SWAT was never intended to be "the next logical step" that everyone was "expected" to reach after Officer Deployment. Officer is the MEPD elite... SWAT is simply the MEPD "specialized." (hence the SWAT name) Unfortunately this was all talked about — at LENGTH — and voted on and all first with the Command Staff alone, and then among those who already had Sandtrooper and Officer status. So when new guys came on board the understanding of what "SWAT" was, how it worked, and so on, was somewhat lost. I understand how this (at first) doesn't seem like it makes sense. How could "SWAT" — which is "better" — require less things — like a pack, or teeth, or shoulder pouches — that Officer requires? Well hopefully this explained it a bit better. YES... there is a difference. And there SHOULD be a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick.black Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 No... unfortunately it's acceptable for one but not the other. The issue is SWAT was created to be a standard for people to reach that had already 501st standards... had moved through Deployed Officer standards... and wanted something else to reach for. So the idea was that people would already 1) be in the 501st, and 2) have Officer status. It was NEVER meant to be a 'first step.' Reaching it was meant to be difficult AND, again, was meant to consider you already had the other two things in place. It was also meant to be something that looked at the movie very specifically and said, "Okay, this guy has 'X, Y, and Z'... so to achieve SWAT deployment for "him" the applicant must have 'X, Y, and Z' as well." Of course this meant that we would run up against things exactly like we have here... someone wanting to do a trooper like "Stop that Ship." He not only has only 6 teeth, but he also does not wear a pack. Well, that's fine and good if you get into the Legion without a pack, but to get Deployed as an MEPD Police Officer you must have a pack. So, if you're "starting" with the hope of going directly to SWAT Deployment with a "STS" trooper then guess what? you're going to have to get a pack anyway to get Officer first. Basically the Officer Deployment remains to be the best goal for 99% of guys to go for. SWAT was never intended to be "the next logical step" that everyone was "expected" to reach after Officer Deployment. Officer is the MEPD elite... SWAT is simply the MEPD "specialized." (hence the SWAT name) Unfortunately this was all talked about — at LENGTH — and voted on and all first with the Command Staff alone, and then among those who already had Sandtrooper and Officer status. So when new guys came on board the understanding of what "SWAT" was, how it worked, and so on, was somewhat lost. I understand how this (at first) doesn't seem like it makes sense. How could "SWAT" — which is "better" — require less things — like a pack, or teeth, or shoulder pouches — that Officer requires? Well hopefully this explained it a bit better. YES... there is a difference. And there SHOULD be a difference. Totally agree with all that Noel. I am starting out in the 501st and my ambition has been to emulate some of the great builds that I have seen on these boards and develop a movie accurate costume from day 1 in order that I can be cleared by the 501st, then gain MEPD Police Officer status, and also gain SWAT clearance, because my armor is of a high enough standard to do so. As I am going for STS captain I appreciate that I will need to have a pack in order to get 501st and MEPD cleared, but that my SWAT clearance would not require it, this is fine and as such I have built a pack, as it will be my intention to troop with it anyway. My problem with what you have discussed above is, with regards the number of teeth, you are saying that someone building a set of armor, to the highest standard possible, would not get cleared by 501st and MEPD purely because there are not enough teeth cut in the frown, despite the fact that it is known that many helmets in the films had irregular numbers of teeth. This does not make sense to me at all, and I would hope that the Command staff would be able to make a judgement call on submissions from someone like myself and James, knowing that we are aiming for SWAT standards, and allow MEPD Police Officer status with 6 teeth. Again I apologise if my tone is one of anger/dissapointment but this is a big deal to me, and affects the aspirations of my armor build. I have always found the MEPD to be a great place with some great people and I hope that common sense can prevail here. Best regards Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayHoop Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I've no prob with the rules, I understood that the S.W.A.T status was there for already deployed officers so the need to buy a back pack etc is all cool I'll just leave my STS lid with its innacurate 8 holes and then if I get as far as going for S.W.A.T I'll seal the unwanted holes and fill etc and paint over them. I can understand the frustration of nickblack423 though, not so bad for me as mine already had 8 holes and was already inaccurate for S.W.A.T. Sorry guys! I never meant to stir things up! Cheers, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 My problem with what you have discussed above is, with regards the number of teeth, you are saying that someone building a set of armor, to the highest standard possible, would not get cleared by 501st and MEPD purely because there are not enough teeth cut in the frown, despite the fact that it is known that many helmets in the films had irregular numbers of teeth. This does not make sense to me at all, and I would hope that the Command staff would be able to make a judgement call on submissions from someone like myself and James, knowing that we are aiming for SWAT standards, and allow MEPD Police Officer status with 6 teeth. First off, no apologies needed man! This issue is something that rears its ugly head mainly because we're working "from" the 501st standards to the MEPD Police Officer standars, and THEN have SWAT on top of that. In other words the system wasn't planned to have the 3... it was an add on on top of an add on... The Police Officer standards were meant to "force" people who wanted the status to upgrade and get packs and stuff. It worked. People do it now and almost every member of the MEPD is, eventually, deployed and has a pack and everything. We've talked (again, at length) about the packs and agree, as you do, that getting them and requiring them for the Officer standing is still needed and shouldn't be done away with... BUT... you bring up some good points here and it's certainly something I think we (the Command Staff first, then the MEPD as a whole) should discuss more... So, I'm moving this to "private environs" but, rest assured, we're talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclasta_88 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 OK... Please, all this explaining is for sure meant to be for the best interest of all the members of our community. So, any question or doubt is welcome! We want to make this the best place for everyone. But we need to make it fair to all. Also, I am still thinking many things about this issue. And would like to ask you, all of you that might be affected, not to modify your buckets just yet. Please, let us have this clear and then we will come to you all and explain our ideas or whatever. SWAT program, as I have stated before, is very difficult to evaluate and of course, to achieve. No wonder why in a whole year of the program, we have only 8 SWAT team troopers. Also, what Bluey said is true. SWAT program is not meant to be the next logical step after Police Officer. It is another more difficult set of requirements for those looking for a more difficult goal. Where accuracy to any of the 6 main TDs on screen is required. This is a more, lateral move, so to speak, for those always looking for new goals. So... give us a day or two... I am just now writing a PM to Bluey about my thoughts on this matter. Thx. Saludos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick.black Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Thank you for your time and sensible understanding Noel. That is all I ask as I feel it is something that needs clarification. If you decide against it then I will have to come up with a solution, but I am a great believer that sometimes things come up that no-one else has thought of. (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Why is getting an extra bucket such a big deal? And regarding the teeth - isn't the 6 and 8 versions different - it's not just a matter of not cutting out a pair? Isn't the plasement/spacing different? I wholeheartedly support the system and rules the way they are atm. If you want deployment, get a backpack - it can be had for a very reasonable price right here. Or don't. If you want SWAT - go through **** and back to get that armour as accurate as possible - extra buckets, spanish pouches made by blind maidens and the thin blue wire on the BFG. Or don't. If you start bending the rules you will stray away from the accuracy aspect wich seems to be the whole point of SWAT? Heck, I paid 650 usd for my astromech's dome alone - just because the curvature of it is accurate - if I just wanted something that looked right-ish I could have used the 50$ lid of a Weber barbie... Does all SWAT variants require the 6 teeth, or just some? And why is 8 mandatory for regular deployment if many actually had 6 on screen? Maybe something could be adjusted regarding the rules here, but frankly I like it better when it's a bit tricky and you have to make an effort to get there...wish me luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyBoy Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be possible to leave the 8 holes as they are for now, until I've applied for police officer, and if I succeed at that, then fill the holes in for application for swat status? Or would that then mess up the already gained officer status? Cheers, James In my opinion thats probably the best way to go....i dont see it being too difficult a task either good luck man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Does all SWAT variants require the 6 teeth, or just some? And why is 8 mandatory for regular deployment if many actually had 6 on screen? Maybe something could be adjusted regarding the rules here, but frankly I like it better when it's a bit tricky and you have to make an effort to get there...wish me luck.That's exactly it... as far as I know (without triple checking) the only one that has 6 teeth is the STS bucket. That's why 8 are required for Deployment as a Police Officer. So that's the rub... and exactly what we are now talking about in the Command Staff area. Don't fret! We've got your back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclasta_88 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The thing is, Legion, Police Officer and SWAT CRLs are meant to be different things and focus on different aspects of the character, build and portrayal... One thing I have never completely understood is why should one stand as the next step from the first one, when they were not all designed as that. But that is the Legion agreement and that is why they are written in such format. Truth is that, from my understanding, the different status and CRL mean this: Legion: "Hey dude, you`ve got a star wars armor and it does look like those guys on the desert" Police Officer: "Man, your sandtrooper armor rocks! It has all the bells and whistles I would have expected from a desert trooper, a real bad guy." SWAT: "WOW!!!! Check that Sandtrooper out, he just came out from the movie set... and you can tell he is the real thing" So, it is not always a mater of accuracy. Actually, it is just for SWAT. Legion is to look like sort of it. P Officer is to actually play the part. SWAT is to be all you can be (sorry for the reference there). Police Officer was created years ago to make the TDs in the legion look more uniform and better. Not just a random TK with blue cauldron and a battle droid blaster. SWAT was the next step in accuracy, but not in uniformity legion wise. Cause this program is meant for the few striving to achieve a screen accurate look. Even resigning to the personal character that every "generic" TD has... Does that explains it in a more down to earth manner? Hope so We are still debating behind the scenes... but your input is very useful! Saludos. Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclasta_88 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Man!! Just take a small step back and look at this... Isn't it awesome???? A character that some years ago was not taken seriously but by a small bunch, is now one of the most iconic and admired characters in the Legion. A TD, and specially a MEPD Deployed TD stands out in any con or event. And it is all because so many guys like you and me were here before, and are here now, discussing if 6 or 8 teeth is a valuable addition to our character or not!!! This is awesome! This is a great community and a great hobby! And you guys rock!!! Maybe we should not derail anymore this build thread and focus in what it is about; and maybe start a new thread to discuss the number of teeth HERE. Saludos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 My thoughts exactly bro! The MEPD is awesome... and THIS is why! And you're exactly right, Juan... the system was "broken" from the first. If we had KNOWN — and if the "we" had been "we" that we are now — that we were going to have Police Officer, and then one day add SWAT, this would've been sussed out a long time ago. And we really did such a good job of making sure everything was agreed on... but we, admittedly, missed this ONE little issue of 6 or 8 teeth. Let's keep talking... and, so everyone knows, we're not going to arbitrarily decide this... if anything IS decided it will be after much discussion and voting and "agreement". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyBoy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Man....that's a lot of information to review from my iPhone....lol This is really a great thing that came up and I'm glad we can come together and decide what's best as a unit. One thing to really keep in mind is that if we waiver on the criteria all the work that we do will become not as important. SWAT....is only the step for those who wish to make alterations that may or may not be inline with the CRL's and cause the complete reworking of the armor, pouches, packs, weathering etc... It's not like you have to be SWAT to be one of the •cool kids• it's just fun to do if you want to be more accurate. As far as I'm concerned every single trooper on this forum has a kick a$$ set of gear and I'd be honored to troop along side of you. Maybe for the troopers that plan to go STS should just paint the 2 teeth black while submitting for their initial officer status. Seems like a simple compromise that we could make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 If we were to vote right now I think I'd vote to leave everything "as is." Sure the 8 teeth for deployment doesn't "make sense" if you then go on and do an STS trooper for SWAT — which I hope to do, btw. But SWAT isn't meant to be "easy" and it's not even meant to be "with the same armor." Of course we don't want it to be unattainable... but I think you should have to consider all of these things before doing anything. I'm going to have to get new armor to do SWAT. I'm thankful that the "Officer" status is grandfathered over so I don't have to OWN both sets full time — heck, if that were the case Rolf would be constantly getting deployed! But the fact is SWAT is tough and, something that I think people keep forgetting, it's a CHOICE! So... like I said... if we were to vote right now I think I'd vote to keep everything "as is." Meaning someone who wants SWAT with an STS trooper would have to first get a pack and pouches that they would later not use, then cut 8 teeth, then get Deployed as an Officer... then... after all that... they'd have to "ditch" the pack, get correct pouches for STS, and fill in two teeth or have a 2nd helmet. That would be the breaks... and that would be part of the choice to do it or not. All of that said we are talking about teeth here and — while I'm not condoning it at all, and I would never do it — I doubt anyone would notice if there was some teeth play in PhotoShop. What?! No... no... I didn't say anything else, why? What'd you hear? Nah, you're crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayHoop Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hi guys, I love this forum, so many informed and knowledgable people. It's really nice to see people taking small details seriously, and discussing them in detail All of what bluey said just above: I'm happy to do that, I'll go for making a generic TD with pack and 8 teeth, but other wise as closely based on STS as I can. In all honestly given that this is my first armour build, it's highly unlikely I'd get it to meet s.w.a.t requirements straight off anyway Cheers guys! Oh and thanks for moving this off the build diary James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick.black Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 All of that said we are talking about teeth here and — while I'm not condoning it at all, and I would never do it — I doubt anyone would notice if there was some teeth play in PhotoShop. Noel, I was thinking along those lines myself, but you didnt hear or read that. LOL My own point of view on this subject is that I understand that you originally developed the SWAT program for guys who are already MEPD cleared to have something better to aim for. But it seems like you didnt anticipate someone like myself who came in from outside, saw the challenge of SWAT and thought "right...if that is the highest level to aim for then that's what Im going for!" I am more than happy if you decide that I cannot get clearance with 6 teeth I just wondered whether there was maybe some scope for the CRLs to be revisited if this is something that is a common problem. It appears at the moment it is not, but it may become so at some point. Whatever you decide I will adhere to, I just want to make my POV heard and hope that the discussion will foster greater understanding. Thanks for your time. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks, Nick! I'm glad it was brought up! We have a poll up now — it's 501st members only, of course, but it's there. 501st Members - GO HERE TO VOTE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIVE Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Okay guys... the poll took place and a vote was decided. The results are posted here for public viewing. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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