Some thoughts on recent events

[SethB6025]

I am late to this ball-game so I apologize in advance. I have been catching up on the banter regarding Chris' recasting of one of Matt's TE suits and helmet, and Mike & I's command decisions on how to deal with it and future incidents.

I will try not to jump around too much between my personal morals & standards and the decisions made in the role of a DL of a 501st detachment and admin of a board that tends to bridge the gap between a pure prop board and a pure costuming board.

As for our command decision; my first reaction was to ban Chris. The precedent exists in the prop world and we felt that is how we had to react. To ignore the information and look the other way, even though it was shared in private, would have done nothing more than to validate what was being done. After this of course the reaction from many members was negative, and Mike & I continued to discuss the issue throughout. We decided that from a command standpoint we reacted too rashly and rescinded the ban. Why we would do that is somewhat simple. When you ban someone they don't disappear, they just continue what they are doing and fall off the radar. Chris indicated he had no intentions to stop, so a ban would not be effective at all in slowing or stopping the activity. Instead the seemingly odd decision was made to keep the user on board, at minimum the linage of his armor would remain public and hopefully it would save some people from buying a recast, and perhaps letting someone know that they will still be accepted after making a mistake will give them perspective & maybe change their mind about what they are doing. It is not meant to condone recasting, and certainly does not mean its open season for recasting on this forum. Our decision making is dynamic, therefore if it has a "free-for-all" effect it will force us in the other direction, excising all those who choose to violate the "Honor amongst Thieves" concept in respect to screen-linage items.

Now, for my own point of view. I don't like the idea of not banning a recaster. If someone can justify copying one thing I think it will be no trouble for them to rip off something else. I hope I am wrong about this in the case of Chris (prove me wrong bro!). I am also alarmed at the increasingly lax view on recasting by a lot of people in the hobby, both on this board and in general. Although seven years on I know I am sick of the subject, so I think most other people who have been around for more than a few years probably are too. Maybe that is a big part of it. It will hurt the hobby though, I know there is something on my table now that will only go into the hands of people I socialize with regularly. The main reason being I don't want to see it bastardized by some hack who wants to get something for nothing.

I think its wrong to copy someone's work period, even if its copying a direct copy of a screen used item. No matter if you respect the person or not its about respect for the work, which is almost without exception degenerated in quality by the recast (possibly the most offensive part of the illicit recasting process). You have to make sacrifices to respect your own work, a recaster makes no sacrifice. Almost no money, almost no time, almost no effort. The end result is a product they don't love; and it shows. In this hobby you get what you pay for, no amount of cheap armor would make me want to forgive crappy quality. I know not everyone shares that point of view though. So for them it will be no big deal, as long as it looks okay and doesn't break the bank.

Sorry for stirring the pot on this, but its been on my mind over the past couple of weeks and I wanted to share my angle with everyone. I also want everyone to understand the decision that Mike & I came to was determined by us as command of this detachment and not in our personal "off the clock" roles.

In closing I will put my DL hat back on and let everyone know that price bashing is unwelcome on this forum. I see Gino taking a lot of flak over his helmet auction, and it is totally uncalled for. An artist is entitled to charge what they want for something. If you think its too much; just don't buy it. If it really is too much, no one will buy it. Take it as what it is and don't be a ***** to the person asking the price. It will only cause venom and drag the board down. Thanks crew, you all rock in your own special way.

[TD-4935]

i'm glad i just read that Seth. you've hammered home some very valid points which i personally feel rather silly about.

My aired views on this subject were rather scewed by what i can only describe as a personality clash.

I owe Gino an apology in essence.

we've had a few clashes before on other forums some of which i still stand by but this one was adolescent obtuseness.

It is hard to make a judgement on something someone has done when you have a certain respect for that individual (since being on this forum, Chris has been nothing but helpful and courteous and positively involved when someone needed help or advice)

Gino on the other hand comes across rather evasive, accusatory, pompous and egotistical (this is not meant as an attack, just an observation) and i guess i found it hard to get past my personal dislike for his forum persona.

Gino was only looking out for his and other artists work and he was totaly right to do so and i do completely agree with him but i couldnt bring myself to side with him because his board persona really gets my blood boiling. its irrational, stupid and childlike and for that i'm sorry.

i still dont have to like his forum persona but i must endeavour to not let this cloud my judgement when replying to posts.

He is a very talented guy and yes, he should charge what he likes for his work and thus i also apologies for my comments on that.

i wasnt condoning recasting, i guess i was siding with Chris on a "he's a good bloke" basis.

recasting, however you look at it is killing this hobby. things are definately going underground and from where i'm sitting i thought i WAS underground.

just look at the clone thing, nobody can get anything right now because the artists are too afraid to let their product out of their sight for fear of recasting.

thanks Seth, you are a truly wise man.

[RoCKo]

well said, seth!

i´m really glad you came up with this!

i will post my opinion later as i´m in a hurry right now...

[SethB6025]

The issue of recasting & the ill-defined honor code is anything but black & white and there is a lot to it. We as hobbyists have made it very complex in an effort to simplify it.

Honor amongst thieves is a broken concept, its sad but its a fact. Turning recasting into a "scarlet letter" type of situation has historically done nothing to stop the practice. Just because someone cannot post to a forum doesn't mean they are out of the loop. Just go to a con and see the dozens of recast hand props for sale.

Its high time that we create a dialog instead of putting up a brick wall. There is already a paradigm shift of opinions happening in the hobby, if we don't open our minds to different ways of dealing with these type of situations it will go the wrong way.

[gino]

Seth, I couldn't disagree with you more.

And, I completely disagree with the decision. You can't stop people from recasting, but as a community, you can make it difficult for them by not allowing them to BE part of the community.

You accomplish this by

1) banning the recaster

2) not allowing the recast items to be sold

3) preventing the discussion of the recast items

By doing these simple things, it will severely limit the exposure of the recast items, as well as discourage it from happening in the future.

By allowing him to stay, you set a precedent that it is an accepted practice. Seriously, what now would stop anyone else from doing the same? What consequence has been established for the admittedly guilty?

I wish you guys would re-think this whole thing. I know I've discussed this issue with other artisans and already there is a rift happening between collectors and costumers. Or more specifically, the people on the FISD and MEPD.

recasting, however you look at it is killing this hobby. just look at the clone thing, nobody can get anything right now because the artists are too afraid to let their product out of their sight for fear of recasting.

This is very true.

Trust me when I say it's only going to get worse, and unless this decision is reversed, the FISD and MEPD and it's members are to blame.

Your first gut reaction to ban the guy was the correct one.

[SethB6025]

1) banning the recaster

2) not allowing the recast items to be sold

3) preventing the discussion of the recast items

1- I think the first point is debatable. In this case the person said they expected to be banned and that it would have no effect on what they were doing. So if he was flat out banned it would have been a completely impotent gesture and nothing would change other than his access to posting and a couple forum sections.

2- We already do this. Recast items are not allowed to be sold on this forum.

3- I don't see how this is effective. How many people bought a Meatsock because they didn't know what it was, when the community was perfectly aware of its origins? Early on in the hobby I made the same mistake, because of the issues being taboo. Plenty of others do the same, because no one discusses it.

By allowing him to stay, you set a precedent that it is an accepted practice. Seriously, what now would stop anyone else from doing the same? What consequence has been established for the admittedly guilty?

It has been noted that it is not an accepted practice. As far as consequence there is the embarrassment of it becoming a public issue. Other than that there is nothing. He has said outright that a ban will change nothing, what else can be done in terms of a "punishment"? That isn't a rhetorical question either, I am looking for input. The only option anyone has been able to offer up is one that is ineffective against the recasting.

You try to single out FISD and MEPD, but take a look at the RPF ban list. It looks like the problem is everywhere. I agree about the rift between strict costumers and strict prop collectors, many costumers could care less about the contributions of artists. I think it is an absurd viewpoint, but ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

[gino]

1- I think the first point is debatable. In this case the person said they expected to be banned and that it would have no effect on what they were doing. So if he was flat out banned it would have been a completely impotent gesture and nothing would change other than his access to posting and a couple forum sections.

I disagree. If at the very least, it sends a message that if you do this, that you are not welcome in the community. That's the price of recasting.

It WOULD have an effect because for one, they would be labeled and blacklisted so that people wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Two, it severely limits the exposure of their recast items, when they cannot be sold or talked about. And yes, I think that the meatsock is NO different. Ingorance is no excuse. Isn't that what these forums are for in the first place, to steer people in the right direction? If not, these forums have failed.

Being a 'nice' guy should have no bearing on the matter. Too often this is the reason people hesitate to hang these people. If you want to be one of the top prop/costuming forums, you need to lead by example and not allow this kind of stuff. Say what you want about the rpf, but at least they got this one right.

Do you think for one second that any of this would fly over there? **** no. And it shouldn't here either.

When I first found out about Chris' admitted recasting on FISD, I thought this BS would never fly on places like TDH, MEPD, RPF, or MPPC. Those are the forums that I have (had) respect for. The ones I could speak proudly of, or direct people to because they were forums of integrity.

How can I (or anyone else) say that about this forum now?

It's not that I'm the only one who shares this view, it's just that I'm not afraid to say it. I'm used to taking heat for stuff, especially 'unpopular' viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I'm not right in what I'm saying.

It's a shame that all the people who have privately contacted me with support on this issue are too afraid to share it publicly. Part of me can't blame them. Just part though

[SethB6025]

I agree with you, but as I have said before it doesn't seem to be applicable in this case so we thought it might be more effective to let him remain but make the info public.

As for all the people contacting you I wish some of them would bother to contact the staff. I know I would like to hear from them if they don't care to post on the boards. No one should be afraid to share a viewpoint here, public or private.

I don't mean to bag on the RPF, I like the forum a lot & read it almost every day. I'm just saying that its clear that banning people doesn't solve any problem. The problem keeps on and those people keep doing it. Just because the threat of a ban looms it doesn't stop people (many of whom you'd never have suspected; like Helmetman for example) from recasting. I don't consider this particular case closed so I am open to debate.

[tk-4224]

seth imo you and mike are right

to ban a recaster don´t stop his work

how often a recast apears on ebay?

very often

how often the guys asking for the lineage of the item?

very often

and we have to look back and into other boards

nothing changed since the recasters were banned from the prop boards

oh wait

if i need a cheap recast i have to look into the banned members topic on the rpf

ok just kidding

i love the idea to know the who is who

so i could be sure what i´ll get

otherwise a well know artist is selling armor for charity signed by lfl guys atm

the text says that this armor is licensed and an original copy of a filmused anh suit

some guys called him an recaster

now he collect money for children

[gino]

Like I said, nothing is going to stop them, but you can seriously limit them.

If that's all you can do, than don't you think that you should at the very least do that?

Right now, whether you realize it or not, it is viewed by most that you are supporting an admitted recaster.

[TD-1536]

Like I said, nothing is going to stop them, but you can seriously limit them.

If that's all you can do, than don't you think that you should at the very least do that?

Right now, whether you realize it or not, it is viewed by most that you are supporting an admitted recaster.

No, we are not supporting a recaster.

You know what really pisses me off right now... having to deal with this crap at this time of the year. I've lost untold amounts of sleep, taken on an enormous amount of stress and had to argue this crap incessantly on the **** internet and to what end?

This board is first and foremost, a detachment of the 501st and geared towards costuming. Period. I could've ended all this weeks ago by simply pointing at the 501st Charter.

To be thrust into this whole debate is outside the scope of what we're here for. It's only by proxy that we're involved in replica props.

I'm done arguing this, neither Seth or I should have to deal with this ****, particularly at this time of year. Drop the subject, move along and take all this Replica props elitism bull **** to other forums that are not 501st detachments. It is not our place, even under direction of charter, to have to deal with this.

[chuckrick]

Amen!

[gino]

No, we are not supporting a recaster.

YES you are. How can you possibly say you are not??

You know what really pisses me off right now... having to deal with this crap at this time of the year. I've lost untold amounts of sleep, taken on an enormous amount of stress and had to argue this crap incessantly on the **** internet and to what end?

YOU'RE ****** off? Take a seat at the table why don't you.

Do you even realize how insulting that is to the actual people involved in this?

This board is first and foremost, a detachment of the 501st and geared towards costuming. Period. I could've ended all this weeks ago by simply pointing at the 501st Charter.

I don't even know what a 501st charter is, so that means nothing to me. Not everone who visits this board is a 501st costumer.

And if you have the ability to end anything, then I'd say someone has been given too much power for their own good. Anyone wanting to squash debate about a topic usually means they know they are in the wrong and don't want to hear it. Makes it easier for them.

To be thrust into this whole debate is outside the scope of what we're here for. It's only by proxy that we're involved in replica props.

Actually, it's not really. You talk about making, building, acquiring costume pieces here. Where do you think this stuff comes from? You really think you are separate because you are 501st? You're fooling yourself if you do.

If you're only here to talk about where people plan to meet up for some event, then you could pretty much close down most of the sections of this forum.

Replica props and costumers are like peas and carrots.

I'm done arguing this, neither Seth or I should have to deal with this ****, particularly at this time of year.

I'm sorry you have to 'deal' with "****" like this. If that's the case, maybe you should reconsider taking a position of leadership on this forum.

Isn't that your job as a mod of this forum? If anyone can't be emotionless and unbiased in their decisions, in my opinion they should never be a mod/admin.

Drop the subject, move along and take all this Replica props elitism bull **** to other forums that are not 501st detachments. It is not our place, even under direction of charter, to have to deal with this.

I hate elitism just as much as the next guy, so calling me elitist is the equivilent of me calling you a costuming dork. It's just insults really, and does no good. Certainly not becoming of a person in a position of authority.

Whether it be RPF, mepd, TDH, etc.. we all play in each other's sandbox.

Have you even noticed that there is WAY more discussion HERE that involves replica props than anything else directly related to 501st activities?

There is no way you can say this issue is not directly related to this forum.

Mike, you don't seem to realize, but to all the artisans out there who make the stuff that you wear, you come off as having the attitude of "who cares about how we get our accurate props, as long as we get them. By any means necessary."

The pond of accurate available props is already drying up as we speak because of attitudes like yours. And you're a leader? Why don't you make a decision that will bring the two sides together instead of pushing them apart.

[tk7602]

As I'm interpreting this, this board is an official unit of the 501st, unlike TDH or RPF. As such, it's governed by the rules of the 501st.

If a member cannot be kicked out of the 501st for recasting, I don't see how a member could be kicked out of an official 501st detachment for the same.

While there's a LOT of talk on this board that is not 501st related, as I've understood it, it is first and foremost a Legion detachment.

If anything, it seems like Seth in particular IS being emotionally removed. It seems that he WANTS to ban the guy, but that is not in keeping with the rules that govern the forum.

And maybe that's part of the disconnect here in general? That this is primarily a costuming board, not a hardcore replica / original prop collecting forum? And so maybe the folks here don't have the same background / experience in the realm of recasting?

When I got my first GF2 helmet, I knew nothing about the history... I just knew that it looked more like the movie than my FX one. I suspect a lot of costumers are like that... not familiar with / interested in history and lineage so much as having a nice looking suit to troop in.

Anyway, I'm straying off topic here.

But it seems to me that perhaps mepd and gino are just speaking 2 different languages that sound really similar, but don't really mean the same thing.

[gino]

Also, I just read about how you'd feel if someone came along and started selling recasts of your clone or backpack parts.

That is EXACTLY how we feel, and the situations are NO different. Even though we didn't sculpt all the pieces from scratch (although some of the armor parts were) they didn't just fall into our laps. A lot of money, research, practice, and personal sacrifice went into obtaining and developing the parts you see today. Well more than you would ever imagine. Ask someone like Braks how long I've been dicking around with trooper stuff.

By allowing someone to recast, you take away the motivation of the artisans to put any effort into making anything nice or offering it to other people.

Did you invent, the sandtrooper backpack or clone armor? No. But that doesn't mean it should be fair game for people to recast either. I would defend those pieces just as much as my own. There is no differce between what Chris did with the trooper helmet/armor and if someone decided to recast your and Seth's stuff and offer them to the 501st for less expensive than what you guys charge.

Both are equally wrong. Being a leader is to show people the way even when it means you are going to take flak for it. I've taken flak for tons of stuff on forums over the years, but now on every one of those issues in time it was proven that what I was arguing was correct.

Be a better leader. That's your job, you're supposed to show these people the way.

[tk-4224]

oh gino boy

you should read what mike is trying to say

but YOU didn´t get the point

this has nothing to do with mike or seth

but this is 501st aerea

and mike and seth have to do what the charter of the 501st says

if you had read all of their comments

or if you know something about seth and mike you should know that that is not their opinion on recasting

this is maybe another attempt to attack someone who only does the job we have given to them and handle in the name of the 501st and their charter

very cool gino

your are a very big guy that you could say sooooo cool words

if you have a lil brain you would see that mike and seth have no other opinion

they love props

they love costuming

and they love our group

maybe you have only one direction

and i think you should go this direction

i had many respect for your work and the informations we´ve got

but with these statements yoo have lost lot of kudos here

[TD-1536]

I'm not arguing this with you anymore, I could keep going... back and forth, back and forth and maybe eventually you'll get your way and Chris will be banned. But what does it solve? Nothing. Stormtrooper helmet recasting is already so rampant, there isn't a thing you can do about it. Just check ebay, tons of people selling TK helmets of dubious origin.

It's like you're the Record company and here comes Napster... you can ***** and moan and cry all you want, but the genie is out of the bottle. There's nothing you or I can do to stop recasting. Banning him is like taking that one kid in his dorm room to court for stealing music off Napster. It solves nothing. Let. It. Go.

I used to take this kind of internet arguing so seriously. I got really involved in all of it back when I was playing metal years ago, and it crossed over into my real life... in that it would occupy all my thought and actions... and it was petty crap, too. Stuff that meant nothing outside of the internet, yet I would loose sleep over it and it effected my interpersonal relationships.

And that's where I am again. Taking all this stuff way too seriously and getting too involved. When I excepted the position of XO, the thought of having to regulate such a profound argument regarding recasting never crossed my mind. It was "not in my job description", so to speak... yet here I am.

I'll leave it to Seth to create a poll, and solve this democratically. If there really are a bunch of people out there, afraid to speak up, this will be their chance to voice an opinion.

[gino]

So then just restrict them to ebay.

Show them that the community won't tolerate it. And if they do, then they have to live ouside the community.

You think that is not a big deal, but it is, and is very effective.

A poll will not help. There will be 10 times the amount of people in favor of recasting, pretty much on every level. Your responsibility (as a person in this hobby, not 501st related) is to be a leader and teach these people why it is damaging to the hobby of prop collecting AND costuming.

Be a leader and set an example for people to follow and you'll build a better, more trustworthy community that artisans are more willing to share with.

I sure as **** know I would. I'd love to offer things to the public (and not for $1000) if I knew that the community as a whole would shun the recaster at every turn.

[TD-1536]

Gino, here is what I wrote regarding board policy a few weeks ago, perhaps you did not read it.

1. It is absolutely against board policy to recast another members work. "Member" being someone within the community who created an item from scratch. Essentially, what we often refer to as a "Fan sculpt". Good examples are the back pack parts Seth and I created and the work of Troopermaster.

2. Considering items such as a TE or Gino Stormtrooper helmet (in example) that are essentially recast works off a screen used item, we will no longer take any stance towards people who make recasts of them. The argument, "I can recast a TE helmet, because Matt (or someone else) recast the original screen used helmet", is certainly a hard one to defend and brings up many moral and personal stances. I think morally, how can we shun a recaster, but not the original recaster? It is this argument we can no longer make executive decisions on. With that said, if you acquire a screen-used item and make copies (recasts) of it available to the public, we'll certainly appreciate your work (considering we all strive for screen accuracy), but it will fall on your particular set of values and morals if you decide to recast that item or purchase a recast. Really, if you look at it, you're either choosing to purchase a second or third generation recast. We will no longer get involved or make judgement.

It is my hope that people ultimately have respect for other people's work, regardless of origin. I've openly stated that I have respect for TE2, but I want there to be a clear understanding that there is no favoritism. If someone wishes to recast a TE2 helmet (in example) and make them available to others, morally and on principle, I don't believe the leadership of the MEPD has a platform to say who's perpetuating the greater offense... the person profiting from an illegal recast or someone who recasts that persons work.

I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to that old saying, "Honor among thieves." Rather than Seth or I having a personal agenda in this matter, we're making one based on a broader set of principles that people can clearly understand.

[gino]

There is no difference between the two examples you just posted.

Because one was scratchbuilt and one wasn't? That somehow makes it okay.

1. Neither belong to us on a legal standpoint.

2. I put more work, money, dedication, etc.. into my cast off original items than you and Seth combined on your scratch builds x 10.

So how are they different?

[Wolfie]

There is no difference between the two examples you just posted.

Because one was scratchbuilt and one wasn't? That somehow makes it okay.

1. Neither belong to us on a legal standpoint.

2. I put more work, money, dedication, etc.. into my cast off original items than you and Seth combined on your scratch builds x 10.

So how are they different?

and with that last statement there Gino, my side has switched as well.

I am now completely 100% sure you're a bit of a jerk.

How did you spend more time and work recasting someone elses work, than Seth did scratch building something to make a mold from?

and they dont charge over 1500.00 for their 'work' either. At least its their work.

If you wanted more respect from people you would charge less for your helmets. I'm sure you'd have an easier time making the "money" you spent aquiring these items back if you sold them for 500.00 each. But instead your are creating your own frakkin' problem by selling them for so much.

By selling them for so much, you are opening yourself up to being recasted. If you sold them at an affordable price, you might gain yourself some loyalty. If you charged a reasonable price, people would go to bat for you more, and feel like there is something to protect. But there isnt because most of us wont buy your helmet so there isnt something we feel we should protect. Your stuff is unobtainable.

I own a TE helmet. It was shottily assembled, but its nicer looking than my FX was. He was gonna repay me for the drilling extra holes in it by sending me some parts , but he didnt, so the both of you can forget recommendations for various reasons.

As for would I buy a Chris helmet? maybe. Mostly now because I dont respect you anymore. I want to look good, but I cant afford everything perfect, and why should I suffer because you want to line your gorram pockets? welcome to the wonderful world of capitolism. Microsoft ripped off Apple, heck and just patented the spin dial Ipod uses cause Apple forgot to. Maybe you should take this sign to start being compeditive.

I'm in this for the kids I make smile and the fun I have doing it. Screw paying 2 grand, maybe you should donate some of your profits to something worth some salt and gain some of this "community" you keep talking about's respect. When was the last time you trooped something ?

[gino]

There is no difference between the two examples you just posted.

Because one was scratchbuilt and one wasn't? That somehow makes it okay.

1. Neither belong to us on a legal standpoint.

2. I put more work, money, dedication, etc.. into my cast off original items than you and Seth combined on your scratch builds x 10.

So how are they different?

[TD 8733]

Ok Mike. You said for members to speak up so I am speaking up.

Gino you have not listened to one word Mike has said. Not one.

This board is part of the 501st! Period. This is not the RPF.

You said the 501st charter means nothing to you.

That says it all.

Council Resolution 1: Legion's Stance on Recasting

Vote completed on 03/13/2006: 35 Yes; 10 No; 3 Abstain

Reference Link

Resolution: The 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.

This makes it very clear that no one is getting banned.

You care nothing about the 501st. You are not a member.

You say a poll will make no difference. I guarantee your wrong.

Let's have a poll right now. Official detachment 501st members only!

That is the position on the main boards. That is why you don't post

there Gino because you are not allowed.

It is time for ALL this crap to stop. Let's get back

to our roots guys. Our loyalty lies with the 501st.

If you don't want to be part of that organization than you

don't belong here.

I AM a member of the 501st and I am calling for a poll.

[gino]

There is no difference between the two examples you just posted.

Because one was scratchbuilt and one wasn't? That somehow makes it okay.

1. Neither belong to us on a legal standpoint.

2. I put more work, money, dedication, etc.. into my cast off original items than you and Seth combined on your scratch builds x 10.

So how are they different?

[TD 8733]

Ok Mike. You said for members to speak up so I am speaking up.

Gino you have not listened to one word Mike has said. Not one.

This board is part of the 501st! Period. This is not the RPF.

You said the 501st charter means nothing to you.

That says it all.

Council Resolution 1: Legion's Stance on Recasting

Vote completed on 03/13/2006: 35 Yes; 10 No; 3 Abstain

Reference Link

Resolution: The 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.

This makes it very clear that no one is getting banned.

You care nothing about the 501st. You are not a member.

You say a poll will make no difference. I guarantee your wrong.

Let's have a poll right now. Official detachment 501st members only!

That is the position on the main boards. That is why you don't post

there Gino because you are not allowed.

It is time for ALL this crap to stop. Let's get back

to our roots guys. Our loyalty lies with the 501st.

If you don't want to be part of that organization than you

don't belong here.

I AM a member of the 501st and I am calling for a poll.