Art Andrews Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Hey everyone. Been a while since I posted but I was prompted by a thread over at the RPF in regard to the requirements for the MEPD. According to the "What it Takes" page: Beside having the requirement for the TD Sandtrooper requirements made by the Legion: -A BFG ( Big Friggin Gun) -Pouches -Backpack The Mos Eisley Police Department requirements that a Sandtrooper wanted to be Deployed must have: -Flat Lenses -Backpack -MP40 or 38 ammo pouches, -BFG (Either the Lewis 21, MG15, or the MG34 type) -Diamond Knee plates -Sandtrooper Stomach plate* -GET DIRTY I take exception to this list as it defines an idealized sandtrooper but doesn't accurately represent some of the sandtroopers we see in the movie or in publicity photos. First of all, not all sandtroopers had BFGs. Several carried the standard E-11. While it appears all sandtroopers had at least one pouch, not all sandtroopers had MP40 style pouches. Not all sandtroopers wore backpacks (or even a pauldron for that matter!) I would love to see a list more along these lines as these are the details that seem to be on all sandtroopers. -No stripes in trapezoids and teardrops -No ribbed shoulder straps -Correct ab plate detail (or more accurately... the LACK of abplate detail) -No drop boxes -No cannister -Diamond knee -Must be dirty -Flat green lenses -Min of one belt pouch Just throwing it out there as the current requirements force a would-be member to be a certain kind of sandtrooper and don't allow them the freedom of choosing to replicate all of the sandtroopers seen in the ANH. These are SANDTROOPERS, not clones... they aren't all supposed to be exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK412 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motman241 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I agree, too. But, I also think the informed sandtrooper should be able to do independent individual things, based on ANH continuity. For example, you can have a sandtrooper with any combination of no backpack, belt pouches, shoulder pouches, BFG, E-11, and pauldron color. Not everyone needs to be exactly like the "look sir - droids" guy. That's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamatrooper Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ahh the same old debate.. either the idelized image or the exact detail on screen.. I think the emphasis here was more intended to be on a minimum list of requirements , as some items do vary depending on the scene, last min substitutions on the set, or for stunts, or just plain improvisation for a costume repair etc.... To take them point by point: ( my opinions only ) BFG- optional pouches - correct style and number (there are several kinds and configurations) backpack - optional* but a vast majority wears them except in the stunt scenes.... pauldron - a must (although one trooper is seen breifly without one, LFL has asked us to have all sandies with them) i'd treat this as a one-off exception, to make the troopers seem in a hurry to the docking bay some left there extra gear behind...??... Flat lenses - green- a must Diamond kenee - a must correct ab plate - a must no drop boxes - a must no TD on belt - a must slotted handbacks- optional Dirt - A must!!!!! plain decals on teardrops = ( is this another one or two off or is this really EVERY single sandie??) Lack of shoulder straps = ( i think this is due to having to wear the backpacks, for the comfort of the actors on the set... a mod for conveinience, not intended as a 'special attribute' of the armor..) either way, does the troopers with no pauldron and no backpack in the hanger have straps? if not, then it's a case for this to be a must.. if he does have straps, then this is optional as i see it... ANH armor or FX armor Well, someone make ANH kits for 500.00 and we will all ebay our FX armor in 5 minutes!!! until then, 500 vs 1500 is a no brainer for costuming.. for replica collectors, it's a no brainer to spend whatever for accuracy... anyone got a line on a ANH style kit for me??? PM me! Lets hear more opinions on each point ?!?!?! Our current list of requirements was basically a starting point for the deployed status,, it is always open for upgrading as new info and supplies became available to the group... -Joey TD-152 PS the BELT!- anyone have a definative answer on the belt being canvas or what around the back??? i think so and a must item too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk432 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 what ever it is.. let me know and ill change it.. but bamma's looks the best. BFG- optional Agree, but need one of the fallowing E-11, BFG, or Prod. pouches - correct style and number (there are several kinds and configurations) Agree, We need to find out witch ones where used. backpack - optional Agree, but should be more of a recomendation pauldron - a must Agree 100% Flat lenses - green- a must Agree (i need to switch mine to green then ) Diamond kenee - a must Agree 100% correct ab plate - a must Agree, aslong as current plate minus the buttons, and smoothed over will work no drop boxes - a must Agree 100%, but brings up the SE debate no TD on belt - a must Agree 100% slotted handbacks- optional Agree 100% Dirt - A must!!!!! Agree 200% as much as i love the look of the newer suits coming on the play ground. i will not replacy my stuff for it.. ive moved on to other projects (vader). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SethB6025 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Good points by all! I think I might have said this at some point before, but there should be a "basic" must-have list (akin to what we have currently) and an auxillary list that lists the "optional" detail-oriented stuff, and a list of screen accurate configurations (I'm looking at you Braks! ). (I know when I do an ANH kit, I'm going for total, super-picky screen accuracy) So something along those lines might prove beneficial to all. That way whether you're going for your own look with your existing kit, or starting form the ground-up to do a screen accurate rendition, everyone will be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_imperial Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 No for sure answer on the belts, but I myself think that it is a canvas, maybe a web belt of some sorts. As we all know they used a lot of surpus stuff for the movies. So I vote for that unless we find out otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Andrews Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 Heh heh. Joey, you know I am ALWAYS going to side on screen accurate detailing. However, you make some very good points. I'd like to touch on a couple of things you said. pouches - correct style and number (there are several kinds and configurations) Good luck positively IDing all of the variations. I believe there are at least 5 different pouches used and obviously more configurations that that. The problem is there are numerous times when we see a trooper from one side and he never turns and shows us what is on his other hip. VERY frustrating. backpack - optional* but a vast majority wears them except in the stunt scenes.... I agree with TK432 and with you. Pack should not be a MUST but it should be strongly encouraged. I guess my thought is that I would not disallow someone because of the lack of a pack whereas I most definitely would over the lack of dirt. pauldron - a must (although one trooper is seen breifly without one, LFL has asked us to have all sandies with them) i'd treat this as a one-off exception, to make the troopers seem in a hurry to the docking bay some left there extra gear behind...??... one of the few places I guess I could budge. I do think the ONE sandtrooper who lacked a pauldron may have simply been a fluke. In regard to the lack of pinstripes in the traps and tears as well as the lack of shoulderstraps.... I have a theory that I have posted to my site and will share here... Lets go back to March 22, 1976, when principal photography for Star Wars began. Filming began in Tozeur, Tunisia which was the location where many of the Tattooine scenes were filmed, including most of the sandtrooper scenes.** Although stormtroopers are the first to be seen on screen, sandtroopers were the first to be created and filmed. With that in mind, a sandtrooper should be considered as a rough sketch or an artist’s first rendition -- an unrefined product. While it initially appears that sandtroopers have MORE details than the regular stormtrooper, those additions are simply window dressing. The base armor of the sandtrooper actually lacks a number of details found on the stormtrooper. Without the pauldron and backpack, and pouches the sandtroopers are lackluster and rough around the edges. A number of details were added to the stormtrooper armor to give it more visual emphasis. Note that nothing was removed from the basic sandtrooper armor. Instead details were added or replaced, as if the original armor was not satisfactory. I challenge anyone to clearly show any sandtrooper with the pinstripes or the shoulder straps or the stormtrooper belly detail (which was glued on OVER the sandtrooper belly box) or dropboxes, or a stormtrooper knee, or a cannister. My theory is that all of this was created later. I don't believe that they were trying to make the sandtroopers so different from stormtroopers. I think they just added more detailing later because the stormtrooper armor was pretty boring once you cleaned it up and took the pauldron and backpack off. In regard to the belt, it is clear that Han and Luke's belts were made of a cloth type material but their suits were special and different from all the other suits. It is not clear if the other suits had the same belts or not but I suspect they did. Unfortunately, I have no proof to back that assumption up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motman241 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Braks, I've heard your theory before, and I agree all the way. I agree on the backpacks, too. C3 is the place to show them off, yet it is like having a second person behind you all the time - whirl around too quickly, and you knock people over. Crowded elevators - yeah, right. Sometimes they're good, sometimes not. Pouches, I'd say have something that looks like it should be there. I made up a few pouches for my belt, so it can hold my camera, wallet, keys, etc. As for the belt back, I've recently been looking, too. I have seen some old British WWII belts that are kind of close. But, since it's dirty, covered by a backpack and pouches, does it really matter? Here's another question that I posted some time ago - what do you guys think about all the other trooper "gear"? Like holsters, binoculars, comm links, binders, scanners, etc? Is too much too much? A lot of us have binoculars - what do you do with them? I'm planning on putting them on my belt, in place of a pouch. Comments and ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_imperial Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 The pack I can deal with. I have wandered a small room stuffed with people with fairy wings, so the pack will be a breeze. But I am going to make my own canvas belt, because 1: I wear a pack anywho. 2: after trying to put the belt on today using ABS, forget it! But as for the smooth shoulder pieces, I made a set, but I wasn't sure using them would be ok. I do think it would work better with the pack. And when it comes to the goodies, I will carry my Binocs arond my neck because I made a cool strap for them. But I do think you can over do it. Besides we all know after a while you get tired of carting it all around with you. And we should all try to look a little different, as it was in the movies. Just my 2 cents of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk432 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 the binocs.. im going to clip them to my belt. carring a BFG and the binocs around my nick would fell weird.. but would look cool in place of the stormtrooper holster. (btw,, yes ive been here from the start.. but i still dont meet either 501st or mepd requirements... im right in the middle of both. so im all for the changes lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamatrooper Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Yeah Brak's I tend to agree with your site's observations, I just haven't really seen any with stripes on the teardrops because there are too many far away shots, but I'm willing to believe that none had this detail at all like you said. Pouches, yeah I wear two, both the MP38/40 leather ones made by a WWII re-enactors group ( leather was the pre-war versions before canvas) Man I realy like the idea that NONE of them had hard shoulder straps. Makes wearing the pack much easier..I can connect my armor with webbing! I've broken my plastic straps 3 times already so they look like smack all glued up several times.. Binocs - I have mine cliped to my belt, left side, with a cell phone clip.. Binders - I have mine also with a cell phone clip, on my right side just behind my right hip ammo pouch.. I usually go with an e-11, just my preference... I have a hardware MG34 for special occasions.. Pack, always.. I've gotten where i can maneuver well without taking out someone when i turn.. cool conversation, I think we're on to "improvements" with better defining the costume. We have to remember , the majority of our own TD's members may not be as aware of the details like this that make the costume better, so threads like this help educate us all and improve our quality.. .. thats the mission of the detachment idea in the 501st anyway!!. Continual improvement! -Joey TD-152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acerhater Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I challenge anyone to clearly show any sandtrooper with the pinstripes or the shoulder straps or the stormtrooper belly detail (which was glued on OVER the sandtrooper belly box) or dropboxes, or a stormtrooper knee, or a cannister. And where does anyone see a sandtrooper with binocs or binders? I reviewed my copy of ANH several times and nowhere did I see these items. This is from the boxed vhs set yet in the photo gallery in the santrooper referance section we clearly see a sandtrooper with binocs. Must be from the later released special edition where they added to the film. Thing is in those pictures the trooper with the binocs also clearly has drop boxes. So just how far do we take it? What do we accept as "canon"? I would say there should be some general guidlines and we shouldn't nit pick every little detail. I thing the guidlines given by the 501st and what is posted on this site as extra requirements; -Flat Lenses (I dont care what color they are as long as there flat) -Backpack -MP40 or 38 ammo pouches, -BFG (Either the Lewis 21, MG15, or the MG34 type) -Diamond Knee plates -Sandtrooper Stomach plate* -GET DIRTY works well as they are pretty standard with what is in the film. I would also say get rid of the drop boxes as they are not seen on the sandtroopers in the film and are a general pain in the butt anyways. Thats my 2 cents, I would be interested in seeing what others think also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Andrews Posted March 25, 2005 Author Share Posted March 25, 2005 And where does anyone see a sandtrooper with binocs or binders? I reviewed my copy of ANH several times and nowhere did I see these items. This is from the boxed vhs set yet in the photo gallery in the santrooper referance section we clearly see a sandtrooper with binocs. Must be from the later released special edition where they added to the film. Thing is in those pictures the trooper with the binocs also clearly has drop boxes. So just how far do we take it? What do we accept as "canon"? I would say there should be some general guidlines and we shouldn't nit pick every little detail. I hear ya bud. I guess there is a lot of grey area and also varying degrees between those who want absolute screen accurate and those who are doing this for fun. I am in total agreement with you in regard to the binocs and binders. I would never carry either as they are not seen in ANH. The additional scenes from the SE are just a joke to me and done so poorly and with so little thought or care that I would never want to replicate what is seen there. Of course, that is just my personal opinion and whether I like it or not, I suppose the SE scenes have to be considered canon. The list I created above is from the original ANH footage only and while I won't try to say that I can prove every single sandtrooper does or doesn't have certain details I can tell you that in every scene where you CAN see these details, they share the details I have listed. I will also admit that I probably take a much more hardcore screen-accurate stance than anyone I know... so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motman241 Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I do agree about the SE stuff - I hate it. Seems they slapped some troopers in it, and said "good enough". But, it is fun to at least carry around binders (or Imperial tickets, etc). Especially at Celebration, you get your picture taken so much, I actually got tired of the same old "point your gun at me" pose. I also got tired of hearing "move along", and "you don't need to see our identificatin". All I'm saying is, I'm trying to understand what was happening/used during the time of the original ANH, and take it one step further. In the Star Wars Tatooine world, what would or could happen? Would you see a snadtrooper with a confiscated weapon? I think so - not screen accurate though. What about a sandtrooper with a prisoner? You think they NEVER took prisoners? (I know we have to keep our quota of shot rebel scum ) Things like that. Oh yeah, for got to say - my binders are kept either in a pouch, or in my backpack - you'd never know I even have them on me. And, I'm not doubting you on this, but I'm generally asking.. since we didn't see sandtroopers in ANH with binoculars, how did we come to associate them? It couldn't have totally been from the SE, could it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD257 Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I suppose the SE scenes have to be considered canonI guess it does as well, but for the purist only the OT will be truly canon. My position is that if the basic requirements that we have now are adhered to then thats good enough. If someone wants to go the extra mile with the flat shoulder straps and no pin stripes on the helmet...great. Lets keep this fun and not too restrictive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motman241 Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Lets keep this fun and not too restrictive.Yeah, I was thinking about this today. Most of the trooping we do is for fun. We're a costuming group amongst the general public (most of the time). They wouldn't know what's what, anyways. Who are we trying to impress. We could be dead-on correct for ANH, and nobody would care. The fans care about pictures, autographs, and attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD1149 Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 I also feel that we should keep this fun and not to restrictive. The only gripe that I have with the MEPD's current requirements is the BFG. While I think it looks great I believe members should have the option of carrying the E-11 like the road block trooper if they want. Personally I'm not a fan of the drop boxes on the SE troopers but if somebody likes wearing them I think they should have the option and not be excluded because of it. As far as some of the other points that were brought up such as the teardrops on the helmet and the shoulder straps I think it would be best to keep these optional rather than take all the fun out of the hobby for some poor newbie. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_imperial Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Being a poor newbie I agree TD1149 totally. I love BFG's just as much as the next guy, but in reality every trooper wouldn't have one and it wasn't that way in the movies. That is part of the reason I went with the prod because I wanted to be different. But I think making a list of optional items would help out newbies like myself and would be a good idea to do. I do agree that the modified ab plate is a must. Since TD6025 posted pics of how to modify it, it is something that is easily done (thank you btw TD6025) And I think the lens color should be optional, otherwise there are a few out there (like me) that would have to rip the wrong ones out of their helmets and put the green ones in so they would be correct for MEPD requirements. And yes, keeping it FUN is a good thing! Ok I'll go back to my corner now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandtrooperScout Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 I know I'm rather new here, but I'm going to chime in a bit. I think the requirements as they stand now are just about right. They are a notch above what it takes to be considered a TD for the 501st, which right there requires an extra level of dedication to be in the MEPD. When I started in on my TD costume, I shot for the MEPD requirements from the get go. Yeah, I had to do a little extra work, spend a little extra money, but in the end its worth it. Now I'm not ANH screen acurate.. I still have the pin stripes in the teardrops and the ribbed shoulders, but I think its good that there still is a level beyond that. I mean, if we required everyone to be at that same high level, there is no where left to go. As long as there's a step or two beyond, you still get to see the creativity and inginuity of your fellow troopers...and perhaps get inspired to go that extra mile yourself. Just look at the number of TD's in the 501st, and the number in the MEPD. There will always be those that feel just enough is good enough. And there will always be those like us that want to go a bit further. And I think we should leave room for those ultra purists to go even a bit farther than us, just to keep some interest, if you take my meaning. But I have to agree with the BFG idea. I think it should be a suggestion, not a requirement. I myself wanted a BFG, hence my MG-15, but there are enough scenes with TD's carrying E-11's that that should be allowed as an option. Heck, I plan on getting one to carry as a "sidearm" myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SethB6025 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Again, I say add a list of "optional" things to the requirements. It makes the details very visible, even to a complete novice. As far as the current list goes, I don't see anything wrong with it evolving along the lines of consensus. The 501st guidelines are okay, but they do leave a lot of things unsaid. So while it may be generally considered onerous to make everyone change their tear drops and straps, it wouldn't be any trouble to make it known. We are afterall, a sandtrooper detachment. Don't you think we should acknowledge these things that are part of our theme? The conflict clearly arises due to varying degrees of interest in total accuracy. "Splitting hairs" may seem like sucking the fun out of it to some, but to others striving for canon or screen accuracy is fun. The sandtrooper is my sole costume, I am saving to get anh armor to be more accurate, when I'm "finished" with my sandtrooper, I might pick up something else, but until then, I focus on this. On the other hand, some people prefer to do four or five costumes only to a certain point, and that is fun for them. In the end, many of us may have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-4242 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Yea I have to chime in with an agreement that I like the standards where they are. We can call the SE Sandtroopers as TDY asignes from the Stardestroyer in orbit. Their dirt looks like smeared on paint anyway compared to the originals. The back packs I think are one area where people can get creative in either being screen inspired or screen acurate which ever way they want to go. Drop boxes and shoulder straps I'm not sure about as a requirement either way. I do think this was more of an evolution and time constraint thing to get the troopers ready for the screen. Without drop boxes you do end up with a large black region that doesn't look great. and should straps were just done to also improve the general look of the suit. Perhaps we should have a 3 tier requirements field. accepted: ab plate knee plate pauldron etc.. ecoraged: back pack drop boxes etc... hardcore: flat shoulder straps diamond hand guards etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD1149 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 I definitely like the idea of a 3 tier requirements field. This would also inform people about the differences between the sandtrooper and the stormtrooper and would give everyone a list to strive for if they wish. And lets not forget about modifying the frown with the extra 2 holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SethB6025 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 If anyone wants to see a sandtrooper wearing a canvas belt, watch the scene right before they run into docking bay 94, the orange pauldron T21, no backpack trooper has one on, as does the no pauldron, two ammo pouch trooper. You should be able to see it in any version of the movie, since they both go through the middle of the screen. Blink and you'll miss it. Oh, and has anyone ever noticed that the orange pauldron trooper that goes down, doesn't actually get hit with a blaster bolt? Maybe he tripped. Stupid freeze frame, ruining everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandtrooperScout Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Welllll, the EU explained that. If you read "Tales of the Empire" I believe it is, the story goes that that particular squad leader was cruel and loathed, and the squad used the shootout as an opportunity to shoot him in the back. Hence no blaster hit from the front. That only if you're an EU fan though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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