gino Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Will do. I had hoped to do it today but too much unexpected stuff came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Also, just wanted to add. Of all the things that were said here on this thread, the one thing that just disgusted me more than anything else was the sentiment that its okay to recast something just because it wasn't sculpted from scratch. If you are someone who feels this way, and are into collecting authentic props/costumes, you seriously need to re-evaluate this thinking. Sure it is the property of the studios and I think we can all agree that none of us have any legal right to these things. That being said, I have to say that in order for this hobby to exist at all, we have to brush that aside and apply some ethical template to what is allowable to be recast and what isn't. Otherwise it becomes prop recast anarchy and that would be devastating to our hobby. I've tried in the past and talked with people over the years about this issue of recasting and how to apply some black and white rules to it. I've come to understand and believe that you can't set clear cut rules for this. Each situation is unique and different. That being said, I believe that still 99% of the time, it's pretty easy to know when it's right or when its wrong. For those who say, well if you just scratch build it, then it would always be clear cut. I would say to them, that doesn't help me or anyone like me who is ONLY interested in items that come directly from screen originals. For people like me, anything scratchbuilt holds little value. To each their own, but I know I'm not alone here. People who are lucky enough to come into possession of screen used items or cast off screen used items etc... will never want to make them available to others if they have to fear a total free for all on others recasting those pieces. In the case of the stuff I make, that is why you never see it in large quantities and only to select people who I've gained trust and respect for, and most especially agree with this way of thinking. This mentality hurts the people who want to acquire authentic cast off pieces because no one will ever want to risk having them be recast. It is happening right now as we speak, most people not ever knowing what sweet delicious items COULD be made available to them but never will be due to this. I've heard some people mention that it takes no skill or talent to form, put together, and detail what they consider some mere pieces of plastic. To that I have to wholeheartedly disagree. There are so many factors that need to be considered along every one of those steps that it gives me a headache to think about trying to list all of them. To this very day, I still strive to perfect and improve upon the minutae that makes these pieces match their screen used counterparts and there is always room for improvement. I do take comfort that the room for improvement is getting smaller and smaller with every effort though. Just some food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-1536 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Also, just wanted to add. Of all the things that were said here on this thread, the one thing that just disgusted me more than anything else was the sentiment that its okay to recast something just because it wasn't sculpted from scratch. Fair enough. I won't argue the topic with you so we'll have to agree to disagree. The only reason I feel I even have a position on the subject is because I spent months working on Sandtrooper backpacks for sale and have 1/2 of a Clone suit project done. A lot of custom sculpting, molding, vac-forming, etc. so I understand the intrinsic value of both making and selling props. I will say that I don't think it's ok to recast a TE, for example, and blatantly resell pulls openly. That I feel is not necessarily wrong, but clearly a generation away from the ideal version, and thus inferior. That fact alone makes a recast less desirable and should deter folks from trying to make a buck doing it. Folks doing open-sale recasting just to make money I will agree, sickens me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoCKo Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 People who are lucky enough to come into possession of screen used items or cast off screen used items etc... will never want to make them available to others if they have to fear a total free for all on others recasting those pieces. In the case of the stuff I make, that is why you never see it in large quantities and only to select people who I've gained trust and respect for, and most especially agree with this way of thinking. - To this very day, I still strive to perfect and improve upon the minutae that makes these pieces match their screen used counterparts and there is always room for improvement. I do take comfort that the room for improvement is getting smaller and smaller with every effort though. Just some food for thought. couldn´t have said better than that! i really appreciate all the work some talented artist like you put in screenaccurate items and i know it takes much more than just time to build REALLY accurate items. it definatly needs skills and talents! unfortunatly the majority of "propcollectors" seem to be unable to even see the differences between items build with skills and talents and the mass produced stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Andrews Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I think it is a shame to see some people belittling those who are reworking and recasting original armor. I understand the argument but what I feel that you fail to see is that comparing what someone like Paul does to what Gino does is comparing apples to oranges. Paul's talent and skill at sculpting is absolutely amazing and I give him all the credit in the world for it. From what I can see, his armor looks awesome! However, I have also seen the time and effort, research and study that Gino has put into reverse engineering the RotJ armor into the ANH. It isn't a simple recasting process, but one that has taken a tremendous amount of time and talent. It is very different than what Paul is doing and takes a very different set of talents but to blow it off as simplistic or requiring no skill is simply ignorant. While I won't take a thing away from Paul or his efforts, the reason I feel work like Gino's is so important is because having seen other screen used pieces vs sculpted pieces and have come to see that it is absolutely impossible to resculpt all of the same wonkiness into a piece that is in the original. You can capture the major things, like the bump in the eye, etc, but an original piece has details inherent to it that simply can't be copied, even with a 3D scan. I know this, not from experience with trooper helmets, but with Fett helmets. Comparing the best fan sculpt to a 3D scan to a casting from an original helmet... there are just dozens of small anomalies in the casting of the original that are really too small to be individually quantified but that come together to give the helmet "that look" that you don't see even in the 3D scanned version. I believe this to be true for the trooper helmets as well. Will the reworked RotJ armor ever be perfect? No. Certainly not. I am sure many of those small anomalies were lost after ESB when the suit was recast for RotJ and I am sure more will be lost in the conversion back to ANH. However, I still favor this approach as the base does have lineage back to the original and some of those anomalies ARE still present. These are just MY thoughts, opinions and preferences. If others prefer a sculpted costume, I say more power to you. Paul makes a GREAT item and anyone should be proud to own one. To me, it is simply a difference in taste and just because you don't prefer the RotJ resculpted armor doesn't require one to belittle the makers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-1536 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 ...However, I have also seen the time and effort, research and study that Gino has put into reverse engineering the RotJ armor into the ANH. It isn't a simple recasting process, but one that has taken a tremendous amount of time and talent... You have a valid point. I agree. The whole recast, mold, vac-forming, etc. process takes a high degree of skill and talent. I'd never belittle those talents because I'm still working on mine and I know what it takes. And yes, I think we all agree there is a major difference between what Paul and Gino have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingoBongo_275 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I don’t think anyone here condones wilful recasting of others work. However I do think that there is a problem with certain prop makers abusing their positions and almost trying to position themselves as the “owner” of something that really isn’t theirs - hence my beef with TE. In the past I’ve stated my unease at instances where a prop maker sells his moulds and therefore “rights” to produce (say) armour to another individual, yet continues to produce himself, repeating the process in perpetuum. We’ve all seen this happen with the result that almost all of the helmets and armour are derived from a single source – with the guy who first “recast” it still trying to exert some kind of moral or financial ownership over the entire domain. However, Gino’s comments below summed up the real problem to me I've come to understand and believe that you can't set clear cut rules for this. Each situation is unique and different.ay – there’s the rub. Basically this is the get all that’s used to cover the cracks in the “grey area” that joins black to white. I would probably paraphrase it as “Its not recasting if I’m doing it (or my friend)” since the difference in each situation is entirely subjective. Basically Gino’s suggesting that the “rules” can be bent to suit the individual, yet apparently fails to understand others who will bend them a different way to serve their own purpose. No one doubts that the helmets he and CRProps made were very good representations of one of the original screen-used helmets, although I’d question what “only select people (have my work)” (sic) means when we’re talking 40’s - 50’s helmets not 2’s - 3’s. In parting I have one suggestion, and it might sound strange that I of all people should say it, but I’d personally like to see TrooperExpert’s return to this board (without the very obvious smoke and mirrors). I may not agree with many of the things he says, but I at least appreciate the right he has to express his views – however bonkers I might think they are at times. His post about a hypothetical brawl at C4 almost made me laugh such that the coffee I was drinking spurted out of my nose! ****, if we can get away from the crowing, chest-beating and histrionics maybe we’ll all be able to get along one day! Cheers Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-1536 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thinking about it some more, I retract my broad statement "It's ok to recast a TE, AP, Gino, etc. because they are recasts themselves, etc." Thinking about the process some more, I realize there is a high degree of talent and skill involved either way. Not the same creative talent it takes to do it from scratch, but admirable talent and skill for sure. It does not change the fact that Gino, Matt...whoever, still recast someone else's work, and that's where I have the moral conflict. It does not mean I advocate recasting anyone's work, especially for personal profit or gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Andrews Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I’d personally like to see TrooperExpert’s return to this board I was pretty well with you right up until this point. I understand your reasoning but can't agree as Matt's sole purpose in an otherwise banal existence is to exert his supposed supremacy over everyone else in regard to anything trooper related. Does this board really need that? We all know Matt's contributions. We all can thank him for helping pioneer the way to many of us having the armor we have had. But to have to endure the garbage and hate he now seems compelled to constantly spew is really unacceptable. I would ask you to consider the purpose of this board or any board like it. Why are we here? To share information. What has Matt contributed lately... lets say in the past couple of years? He has held a lot of carrots out. He has teased and tantalized us with his secret knowledge... How would you feel if Mike or Paul did that? Would they be welcome if they told us about this amazing pack Mike had made but refused to share any information about it, or how Paul had discovered this and that but couldn't share it for some made up reason? Matt has been given a pass for his horrid conduct and attitude time and again due to the fact that he brought a more accurate set of armor to the masses. While I certainly appreciate that fact, it doesn't give him carte blanche to treat everyone else poorly. Jez, given how he has repeatedly treated you without any justification, I would think you would understand this better than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1970s Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Skill - YES - some people do modeling better than others because of skill. Talent - NO! - To purchase armor (skins) and remold them - no talent needed there, just some good modeling skills. There's Talent in being original - not in copying. jv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingoBongo_275 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Braks, Maybe the rush of coffee through my nose took a detour and a few brain cells with it Cheers Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Andrews Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Skill - YES - some people do modeling better than others because of skill. Talent - NO! - To purchase armor (skins) and remold them - no talent needed there, just some good modeling skills. There's Talent in being original - not in copying. jv Hmmm... I see where you are coming from but I still think there is talent in what Gino and some others are doing. It is certainly not the CREATIVE type of talent that Paul uses, but in my opinion it is still talent and not just a developed skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I say it's a fine line between skill and talent. Speaking from my own experiences, I went to art school for product design (althought now I work in advertising). I've seen what people who have some natural talent can be turned into with some training, education, and experience. After that, the line of skill/talent becomes very blurry to me. You are right in saying that it only takes skill to perform some tasks that are necessary to produce some replicas. And I believe it shows in those. But it also takes an artistic edge to be able to distinguish the subtle differences between one thing and another. It doesn't matter if it is drawing, sculpting, or looking a two different photographs. A good eye for distinguishing differences between two things is what I believe is the MOST important quality. That's where the talent comes in. Everything else can be practiced and learned. If you have a good eye, but no ability, can always learn ability. If you have skill, but no eye, sadly this type of person is at a loss. Those who have both are the ones who stand out from the crowd and there are some good ones here. I have an education in product design which gives you a solid background in materials/processes/production. Product design education teaches you to hone your artistic abilities with engineering skills. I'm not saying you need to have this background, but it sure doen't hurt either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-1536 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Skill - YES - some people do modeling better than others because of skill. Talent - NO! - To purchase armor (skins) and remold them - no talent needed there, just some good modeling skills. There's Talent in being original - not in copying. jv Hmmm... I see where you are coming from but I still think there is talent in what Gino and some others are doing. It is certainly not the CREATIVE type of talent that Paul uses, but in my opinion it is still talent and not just a developed skill. Yeah, I was going to comment on that too. When I was in art school, skill and talent were very subjective. You would look at someone's work and wonder were they talented or very skilled. I tend to believe that folks with a high degree of creativity possess a little of both. The talent is inherent, the skill acquired but honed by the talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1970s Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Dear BraksBuddy Don't get me wrong - I have no beef with any of the makers - and am not trying to say they are talentless individuals. I just feel that everyone talks about them as if they sculpted the armor. The fact remains that they copied a set of armor - weather it is from an original ROTJ set or ANH - that's all they have done. If you go on Jez's sight - there is some guy who sculpted up the whole C3PO costume and got it vac-metalized - it looks perfect - Now that's Talent!!! Now I would agree that there is talent if any of these individuals could adjust the ROTJ armor and turn it into accurate ANH armor - but I have yet to see that. Anyone can make claims - Heck, I could say I own the original ANH armor that Han Solo was wearing - but unless I show real photos that can back up my claims - it doesn't mean anything. Gino is claiming his current set of armor is perfect - and it might be. I've seen photos of what I guess is an older version - that was near perfect but still had details that were not accurate to ANH. He said he is going to show us photos of his current armor - and I'm sure he will - but until then I am skeptical of all who claim they have correct ANH armor - especial TE, TE2, AP, and SDS - because they don't. By the way - you've got a great website. Thanks, Jack V. RedFox@optonline.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Please understand, although I have a lot of confidence in my stuff, I've never said it was perfect. I don't have v.2 armor completed yet, just a handful of pieces. One day it will happen but it could be a long while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1970s Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Dear Mike, I went to art school - I'm a graduate of FIT Toy Design School. I am living proof that someone can do art work through skill without talent. I was very interested in toys and I learned to produce art work through skill - being taught how. I went to school with some individuals who were very talented! They were to type of people who didn't need any type of formal art training they were born with the talent. Art school just refined their skills. When you work in commercial art - those who are talented make beautiful work very quickly and don't need to labor over their work. Below is a couple of drawings I did in Toy Design School. Thanks, jack v. RedFox@optonline.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingoBongo_275 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I dont know about you guys but I'm pretty sure I'm a fu^%ing genius Cheers Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1970s Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Hahaahahahahha- LOL jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-4935 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 i have seen "artists" render a famous painting to an almost uncanny point of exactness but were unable to use that skill to produce an original piece of the same quality. on the other hand you have artists who are conceptual, thinkers and ideas men who may not quite have the same skill as the "forger" when it comes to the practical application of painting. This is why many people don't understand modern art today. It is far more concept driven, artistic metaphors, stretches of imagination that doesnt utilise traditional skill. obviuosly there are those out there that utilise both to great effect and that is why they are legitimately succesful in their field. i was having this debate over on BSN about the Lancer requirements. some people were saying that to achieve the higher standards may not be possible to those not skilled in the craft department. if they have managed to get 501st clearance thus far then they have the skills to take it to the next level and maybe "learn" some new skills. the armour/helmet makers had utilised their "talent" to produce the armour, the guy putting it together is utilising his skill as a hobbyist/craftsmen. you don't just turn off your skill when finished, you move to the next level but talent is in the blood. no amount of teaching or practice will ever surpass natural talent. making my backpack gained me new skills and enhanced my abilities to experiment with ideas. i wouldn't say it was a talent. my next pack would be easier and maybe turn out better thanks to the experience of the first. this whole hobby is based around skill and talent, from the most basic to the most extreme. i bloody love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiBes trooper Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 WOW,the last time i mentioned recast,i was flogged severly by Seth..now its a open topic?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD-1536 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Since we've seemed to once again derail this thread, I might as well throw out that I spent three years in Vocational School studying graphic/commercial art, two years at a local community college then transfered to one of the leading art schools in the country, MICA. What do I do for a living? Fix computers and customer support. I thank the Gods of Coble for this hobby, too, as it's allowed me to realize my goals to work with and make replica movie props, which was an early aspiration of mine in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiBes trooper Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Here i will get things back on topic.....Wow SDS armor is real nice and shiny...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Mike, I think we have some stuff in common. A lot of people I went to school with had aspirations to do work for the film/commercial industry including myself. Once I realized that I'd have to move to Cali and work for slave wages moving from job to job quickly set my sights on a more marketable career in advertising. I still get to live out my dreams (to some degree) as a costume/prop maker but as my hobby and not profession so that skill set does not go to waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1970s Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I know what you mean Mike. They don't want to pay anyone at the lower levels in the toy industry anything decent. All the money stay up with the Big Wigs and the Sales Reps! You just end up being a pair of hands for your boss. I have since left the industry and Work with my Dad and brother in Construction - we build residental homes here in CT. It's been a lot less stressful. Thanks, jack v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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